Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:47:23 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Clutch shutter, vibation, shaking - why?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi.
Regarding your comment about not wanting to put a lot of expensive parts in
a rusted vanagon.
I must say ......'we don't have enough information yet to even say that."
First, right now , we're in the 'Information Gathering Phase' ...
In your case that means do everything possible to determine if the noise is
inside the bell housing - i.e. the 'clutch proper' area or if it's somewhere
else.
This phase of the job......the 'information gathering' part.....is hyper
critical.
Many's a 'whatever' part has been changed only to find out it's somewhere
else, so put maximum effort into making sure you're going down the right
path.
If you do get to 'the noise is in the clutch area' or 'no further progress
can be made without removing the transmission from the engine and inspecting
the clutch ' ......THAT is when you need to take the clutch out and apart.
It's like a chess game - you need to consider various approach and action
strategies, maximizing the information gained for the effort expended
...........like make darn sure the noise isn't a belt or wheel related thing
before pulling the clutch apart, for example.
I've spend hours making sure 'taking the clutch out' was the right thing
to do where it wasn't readily apparent the clutch was shot. 'noises' can be
very nebulous ! Vibrations too.
I run cars in the air sometimes. Listening for noises. Be extremely
careful, this can very, very dangerous. You need a minimum of a level hard
surface, 4 very solid large jack stands, and a good floor jack. Without
those it's very hard to properly diagnose.
At some point .....no amount of talking about it, or speculating on what
parts are needed, or worrying about what parts you think it might need, will
substitute for DISSASEMBLY, and INSPECTION - sorry to put those in caps -
lol ! :)
So you do everything you can to find out before taking things apart.
Shoot, I've spend 6 hours to make sure the one hour job I then did was the
right one to do, countless times ! Just to give you an example.........many
shot mufflers on old cars have been replaced, only to find out afterwards
the transmission was very noisy. Of course the person says, "well, if I'd
known that, I wouldn't have done the muffler." And they weren't able to
tell the transmission was noisy while driving it themselves in the first
place anyway. Btw, when I get someone's car for any job, the first thing I
do is test drive it. Because if you replace the obviously shot whatever -
say water pump, then afterwards you notice a symptom, like a noise, ...the
first thought is, did my work create that, or was the car like that in the
first place ?
Point is, investigate carefully and thoroughly as much as you can, when
it's not readily apparent the clutch is just plain old shot. Very often
it's 'the tip of the iceberg' .....you think it's just 'one thing' - and ..
I've noticed a huge tendency to think 'it's just one thing' ...and I
often find it's 5 half tired parts, 3 really shot ones, and 3 things not
put together right - is what I usually find.
The 'replace parts mentality' is really not the smartest way to fix cars.
Sure, you gotta have good parts on there, and parts do wear out.....but
often, just cleaning, inspecting, tweaking, adjusting etc.
You know,.................one shop diagnoses 'shot carb - it'll be 600
dollars.' I look into it, see the valves ( thinking of one case on a Honda )
have never been adjusted in 80,000 miles, the timing belt tensioner needs a
little tweak to get slop out of the belt, and there's a vacuum hose or two
cracked. That's like 'the correct repair' and it cost 100 to 150 instead of
600, and the 600 dollar job wouldn't have fixed it ! Gotta write a book
about this someday !
( and I could tell you about 300 stories just like this one too )
The way to proceed :
Put maximum energy into diagnosing as much as you can while it's together
and running to make sure you're on the right path.
Then, and only then, take apart the appropriate area.
Next, examine ALL parts and adjustments and service/lube issues in the area.
Then decide which parts it needs, then get those in high quality usually
german parts.
Then put it back together with perfect workmanship and super attention to
details.
It takes a lot more time and effort this way, but the results are usually
100 % this way too.
I also find that 'clutch' turns into also ...
Checking the trans oil, lubing the shift linkage, bleeding the clutch
hydraulics if that's appropriate, treating rusty parts, servicing the inner
CV joints, perhaps putting in the better type 12 point cv screws, lubing the
clutch pedal pivot point ( that you can hardly get to ) etc. etc. etc.
Scott
www.turbovans.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Nathan Mc Blain [mailto:nmcblain@YAHOO.COM]
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 11:08 AM
To: VANAGON@GERRY.VANAGON.COM; Scott Daniel
Subject: Re: Clutch shutter, vibation, shaking - why?
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 23:45:00 -0800, Scott Daniel - Shazam
<scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM> wrote:
>Severe clutch chatter is usually oil on the disc.
>Sometimes you can even burn it off by starting out, from a stop, in 2nd or
>3rd just slipping the hell out of the clutch....like it might take a whole
>block to get the clutch all the way out, you have to slip it that much,
>starting out in 2nd or 3rd .
> That's burn the oil off the disc, by golly......it 'might' temporarily
>reduce the chatter affect. Do it several times if needed.
I'll try to burn it off, just afraid it was more severe damage and didn't
want things coming apart?
>No such thing as a warped vanagon flywheel in my world. They seldom are a
>problem.
Glad to hear that- thikin it's expensive
>Extremely unlikely air in hydraulics is the cause.
Thank you for conferming it!
>Clutch disc springs do get loose. Haven't seen it too much, but they can
>fall out of place, or jam, I've never seen a broken one.
So to you this could be the problem but you havn't seen one break? Even
after being engaged VERY hard? I want to figure out what that penny in a
can sound is from.
>Sounds like your cluch hydraulics are tired.
Yes they are- I just hate putting alot of new expensive parts when the van
body has the amount of rust it has.
>Brake fluid for those has probably never been changed from the sound of
>things.
I did change bleed everything back in late 2004 but already past it's 2
year mark-oops.
>Wouldn't be surprised if the clutch was very, very worn out inside the bell
>housing.
>For oil leak - ream main seal, possibly clutch input shaft seal.
>Check the transmission oil level.
>Sounds like it might need 'a lot' possibly, a lot of repair operations and
>parts, that is.
The oil leak sounds like a great possiblity. Sounds like probably I have
to remove the trans.
Thank you much.
Nate 90 2.1L MT silver non/GL
>Scott
>www.turbovans.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
>Nathan Mc Blain
>Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 11:02 PM
>To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>Subject: Clutch shutter, vibation, shaking - why?
>
>List,
> The good news is all the coolant repairs and parts are holding thanks to
>the info gained from everyone Thanks.
>
> The bad news is my van is having clutch problems - alot of shaking when
>letting out the clutch. Noticed mostly in reverse but really bad now in
>first,second. Once I get going things are OK but I'm afraid of total
>failure so have stopped using it. For a long time I have had a klinkity
>klink like a penny in a can noise and also a screeching noise at certain
>RPMS. The catalytic converter did come apart and I replaced it and emptied
>the muffler. I hate to ask questions and try to just listen and learn but
>now I have to ask.
>
> Some history: When I first inherited this van 2004 it started having
>clutch problems-suddenly there was just very slight grab nothing to move
the
>vehicle. At the time this list and any knowledge of vanagons was unknown
to
>me. It got stuck in my uncles yard. To make a long story short he tried
to
>help me without my knowledge and while heavily intoxicated. He just
floored
>it until it grabbed layed a good strip of grass and rubber when it reached
>the asphalt-not nice to my van:( At the time I thought oil was on the
>flywheel and sprayed brake cleaner in the access hole with the motor
>running...probably washed grease out of places it should be and other bad
>stuff - stupid me!!!
>
> This Sunday I described this and everything I know to a young
professional
>mechanic acquaintance (execpt for the brake cleaner blunder) of mine- he's
a
>very good mech but not at all familiar with the uniqueness of our vans or
>the expense of the parts. He's too busy to take another job but has
offered
>to let me pull the trans with his tools at his house. Anyway he thought my
>flywheel is warped. And together we came up with the thought that one of
>the dampening springs in the clutch disk may have broken. I'm wondering if
>one of the springs on the clutch disk broke and is bouncing around in the
>belhousing? That would account for the penny in a can noise. Is this
>possible, plausible, common?
>
> While I was under there today preparing trans removal if needed -spraying
>all the corroded bolts trans/engine bolts with liquid wrench. I tried
>pushing up on the clutch lever to see if the slave would move and it did
>with medium resistance. Is that normal? Can air in the clutch system do
>this? And cause my shuttering and shaking? My mechanic acquaintance says
>no what do you say? I read somehere in the archives that it could but it
is
>difficult to always determine fact from fiction as EVERTHING is in the
>arcives.
>
> FWIW:Under the boot the slave is wet- some weeping. I also have a weep
>coming from the dash end of things but cannot see if it is brake master or
>clutch master. So air could and probably is entering.
>
> Sorryfor the longwinded e-mail. In short:
> What's the most likely cause to severe clutch shutter?
> Do the disk springs ever break, could that be the cause?
> Is it easy to warp the flywheel?
> Can air in the clutch system be a cause?
>
> TIA,
> Nate 90 2.1L MT silver non/GL- who just wants to avoid unessisary trans
>removal and fix the shaking
>
> __________________________________________________
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Scott
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