Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:26:09 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Calculate fuel consumption when idling?
In-Reply-To: <BAY125-DAV1013DAD8F975A616388786A0700@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
When you're towing, moving two vehicles using only one engine,
You're getting really good fuel mileage, 'almost double' considering it's
two vehicles being moved down the road. Now if the westy just had
fuel-paying people in it .....then you'd be doing good, fuel cost wise.
What's the miles per dollar figure though ?
Like how many hundred yards will the thing move on one dollar ?
Ooops, I mean how many miles will it move on a buck ?
:-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:12 PM
To: 'Scott Daniel - Shazam '
Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: RE: Calculate fuel consumption when idling?
At $3.50/gallon the match goes something like this.
3.50/8 = $.4375/mile just for fuel.
My Vanagon only gets about 16 mpg and gasoline is slightly cheaper at
$3.20/gallon so that would be $0.20/mile.
Now for the real deal, when I tow the Vanagon with the motor home I still
get ~7.5/mpg. So for $0.47 per mile I can have the RV and the Syncro
Westy.
Of course we really don't want to talk about maintenance, deprecation,
interest, etc on the RV.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Daniel - Shazam [mailto:scottdaniel@turbovans.com]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:49 PM
To: 'Dennis Haynes'
Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: RE: Calculate fuel consumption when idling?
Thanks for that comprehensive report.
Interesting that oil change interval can be in miles or hours, or gallons
of
fuel.
I'm surprised it doesn't have a electronic circuit to advise when to
change
oil based on length of trips, temp, and amount of time spent running fully
warmed up, much like BMW and Mercedes have had in their cars for nearly a
decade I think.
Let's see.....8 mpg @ 3.50/gal = 3.50 to go 8 miles, so 100/8 = 12.5,
and
12.50 X 3.50 = 43.75 to go 100 miles.. 43.75 divided by 100 = 4.3
miles per dollar. Did I do that right?
My record is 32 miles per dollar.
I put one hundred bucks in an envelope, and bought all gas out of that for
a
split window vw bus in the 70's. got 3,200 miles out of that 100 bucks.
These days I think my turbo Volvo sedan might do 10 miles per dollar, and
going down as gas goes up.
Thanks for the thorough report again !
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Dennis Haynes
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 8:27 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Calculate fuel consumption when idling?
Anti-idling laws AFAIK are mostly for commercial vehicles. Here in New
York class 8 trucks are limited to 3 minute idling unless the temperature
is 25F or lower. Of course enforcement is a different issue.
My current motor home is a 2004 National RV Trop-Cal, T-396. Freightliner
Chassis with a Cat C7 engine and Allison MD3000 6 speed trans. The
anti-idling is programmable from 3 to 60 minutes. I had it changed to 5. I
use it mostly for letting the turbo cool down after a highway run. Pull
off the road and I just wait for it to stop.
The owners manual offers some instructions for warm up and they give a lot
of advice on not doing extended warm ups or cool downs and mention that
extended idling can be detrimental to the engine. Engine maintenance is
based on miles driven hour's engine runs, and gallons of fuel consumed.
For example, oil changes are scheduled for 11,000 miles, 250 hours, or
1,100 gallons fuel. So at 8 mpg, the real schedule becomes 8,800 miles. If
I was to idle 8 hours/day, that would take up 250 hours fairly quick just
idling. Oil changes take 5 gallons of oil and 2 filters. Yes, I use Mobil
Delvac 1 and I do the oil testing to extend the drain intervals.
BTW- Antifreeze is also tested and supplemental coolant additives are
added when needed.
Now for the Diesel longevity myth, keep in mind that this is really a
7.2L, 441 cubic inch engine. Think of a Chrysler 440. yet, this thing
weighs 1,250 pounds and is governed at 2,500 rpm. It is only 6 cylinders.
The service schedule actually lists overhaul considerations beginning at
200,000 miles. The considerations include performance, economy, nose, oil
pressure, cylinder compression, etc. My hoep is that it really lasts at
least twice as long as the engine in my Vanagon has. 251K and still going.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Daniel - Shazam
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 8:39 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Calculate fuel consumption when idling?
Dennis, Well !!! I am VERY excited to hear anti-idling technology on a
vehicle !
Tell me more !
Is yours gas or diesel ?
That's roughly the logic I was thinking of too - a way to detect unneeded
idling, with automatic shut off.
There's these redneck type diesel pick-up truck and dump truck type people
right near me, about 300 feet away ....they just LOVE to fire up a big
diesel dump truck at 7 am and let it idle for an hour, or fire up a giant
Ford diesel pick-up and let it idle for 40 minutes while they just stand
around talking.
If you know any California laws about this, I'd sure like to know.
I cringe when I hear about vanagon people 'warming it up', or letting it
idle until the heater starts working ............just rough on everything,
the engine, the environment, etc
Thanx, scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Dennis Haynes
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 4:32 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Calculate fuel consumption when idling?
Scott,
Thank you for saving me some typing here with your response. It is tough
to get any lower efficiency to charging a battery than using the main
engine. The so called charging controller with its 16 amp output will also
be in the way during the bulk charge cycle. To get full out put out of the
alternator, the RPM will need to rise to 1,600 rpm. Then you also have the
destructive process.
Let's start wit the transmission. All of those clutches just slipping away
and going nowhere. Lots of heat from the oil pump and the valve body being
under constant pressure testing that relief valve. Oh yes, this is good.
FWIW manually trannies do not like extended idling neither.
No for the engine. The 1.9 cooling system suffers at idle. Not much flow
and then comes the cycling of the fan. Oops! There go some 20 amps or so.
The front cylinders do not get good coolant flow. Coolant flows only at
the rear. Probably the main reason for the 2.1 cooling system redesign.
Coolant goes into the engine at the rear and flows out the front. Yes,
flow through.
And for fuel consumption, imagine the cold start and then extended warm up
due to the engine not being loaded. Probably will be close to 3/4 gallon
for the first 1/2 hour.
From experience, a warm engine will use ~3/4 gallon/hour for idle, low
speed. This from building engines and running them on the floor. Yes back
in the carb days.
A 5,500 watt generator will also use ~ a gallon/hour.
Anyway, Mike, you are putting way to much emphasis on getting the battery
to 100% charge and not going below 50%. You do need to consider the
battery as a consumable and a cycle from 80% to 100% is still a cycle that
imparts some wear and does not need to be done daily.
Didn't you already get the Honda generator? Why not use it? Also, is CA
also instituting anti idling laws? My 2004 motor home that I bought in CA
will turn the engine off once the coolant is over 120F and the vehicle
does not actually roll, or see a throttle or brake pedal change in 5
minutes. Yes, it needs to see change. It did once shut down on me in a
traffic jam.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Daniel - Shazam
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 3:02 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Calculate fuel consumption when idling?
Well, finally the whole story comes out.
Shame to run a whole giant car engine just to charge a battery, especially
for up to two hours. I hope that's not in a campground with neighboring
campers, even if it is a quietly running stock waterboxer.
And *now* that we know what's really going on, perhaps you need to
consider rpm while charging. Does it charge significantly better at
1,500
rpm than at 800 rpm idle ? Is it more efficient to charge at a higher rpm
for a shorter period ? etc.
How about this - you make your 'standard run' include exactly the same
period of idle charging each trip ? then you're fuel mileage
calculations
will include 'trip there and back plus X hours idling."
Methinks a very quiet small Honda generator is really the right device
and
method for your purposes. Though it is another device to lug along, take
up
space and weight, and they're not cheap, so it's understandable you'd want
to not have one of those if you could help it.
I got it ! .....stationary bicycle driving a generator ! Then you pedal
each day 45 minutes - no pollution, no noise, no burning fossil fuel
inefficiently, plus you get exercise. And how many calories per hour does
a
vanagonite burn charging a battery at 5 amps per hour burn ????
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Michael Elliott
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:04 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Calculate fuel consumption when idling?
Hi Phil,
I want to find out what difference having the wheels on my van aligned
makes to my van's mileage. I have a "standard" round trip I make, to a
nearby mountain camping area. The last time I made that trip I got 16.2
mpg. I will be making that trip again in a couple days.
This time, though, I will not be using solar power to keep my aux battery
full. I have a battery charger that runs off the alternator and I reckon I
might need to run the engine a couple hours a day to top off the battery.
If I don't have a clue about how much fuel the engine consumes when idling
then I can't factor that in when calculating my mileage after I return in
order to see what diff the alignment made. So that's why I asked if anyone
knew fuel consumption when idling. It wasn't, ah, an /idle/ question.
--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
74 Utility Trailer. Ladybug Trailer, Inc., San Juan Capistrano
KG6RCR
On 11/26/2007 6:04 AM phil cain wrote:
> Here we are trying to figure out what the idle
> consumption is, when the best we can do on the miles
> per gallon/ or idle consumption, is get a close
> estimate, do we have a screw loose somewhere. We are
> not flying a aircraft where the fuel is figured real
> close, we can always pull over to the side of the road
> and walk to the gas station. I have a average of 19-21
> MPG on a 80 Westy that's good enough for me. Phil
>
>
>
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