Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 12:35:12 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Overheated Westy '87
In-Reply-To: <20071203.144956.244.4.bstokes4@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Right, those rear heater t-fittings do get brittle. You can still get them
new I believe.
I thought I made it medium clear in my long answer that ......
Well, spend 800 on hoses, but that in no way insures that you've replaced
all the parts that are likely to be an issue at some future point.
AND ...the hoses aren't even the weakest area !!
What I'm saying is, if money was no object...i.e. "I don't' care what it
costs, I just want to know that every cooling system part that could have
had its life shortened or could fail in the future - I want all those
replaced." .....
This to me is 'the not possible job' ......
You could work on it 15 hours straight replacing parts and not even get all
of them, no where even close. You CAN increase your odds of future failure,
but I say, *randomly* at best,
there are so many parts.
And as I said, it's not the hoses that are weak.
It's the plastic parts - and there are too many of them to contemplate
almost.
What is your rear heater core like ?
Those are often leaking by now. It should have the valve on it part way on
365 days a year to keep some flow going always.
I 'wish' I could say 'do these 30 parts and you're 90 % assured of no
failures for the next two years' ........ but I can't really say that.
If you are serious, I would suggest a 'real' and THOROUGH inspection of ALL
cooling system parts, by a vanagon expert - a REAL inspection like that
could take a couple of hours of labor.
And even then................well, think of it as an aircraft - after 21
years on the front heater valve it should be replaced just due to 'hours in
service.' . And so forth.
There are simply too many parts spread throughout the entire vehicle to
'really' get you what you want. 'Almost' that is.
Really gripes me to see a shop sell 'all new hoses' to a vanagon owner for
800 dollars when those aren't even the weak areas ! And it doesn't even
begin to touch all the areas that could fail, AND ...that's not even ALL
the hoses even though they say it is !!!
"All new hoses' on a vanagon is just a quick, very profitable job for a
shop. And doesn't even really touch the actual weak areas.
You'd be better off to proactively replace the head gaskets practically.
Those are a joke and just can not last forever.
Anyway, don't mean to be negative, but all you can really do is do what
seems reasonable, and stay alert, and catch things when they are small.
Even if you spent $ 5,000 dollars with me in my shop, I doubt I could really
promise you 'ok, there is nothing that could possibly fail now in the
cooling system."
I'm exaggerating some, but there really is no 'ok, do these 10 or 20 things
and everything is guaranteed to be fine for a long time .'
My personal style is to keep good working parts in service- things
actually go down hill by replacing too many things often. 'All new' parts
is not actually better sometimes, in any system. I cringe when I see
people wanting to replace a lot of parts- sometimes the new parts are of
lower quality, and it's not like workmanship is that perfect that often - I
constantly find poor workmanship, wrong parts installed, things left loose,
etc. etc. etc.
You'll notice it's the only common water cooled rear engine van around.
It's not a practical design actually, the cooling system is inherently
problematic by it's very design and due to the materials used. There's kinda
no way around that really. All you can do is try to stay on top of it, and
do what seems reasonable as you go along.
I recognize your goal : "proactive but not at the expense of changing
unnecessary parts' ...a fine and reasonable goal, but a pretty tricky one to
achieve with a water cooled vanagon, put it that way. But yeah, do those
T's back there, they do get brittle.
Sincerely, scott
www.turbovans.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Stokes [mailto:bstokes4@juno.com]
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:50 AM
To: scottdaniel@turbovans.com
Subject: Re: Overheated Westy '87
I have a 4 speed non syncro Scott. My main concern is whether or not
there are any critical parts that are receptive to over heat damage. I'm
looking at about $800 to change out all hoses which are probably mostly
original. This ain't cheap, but if it's likely they are going to fail,
it will be necessary. I have also heard that the "T" or "tree" fitting
is important to replace as well as the hoses. I like to be proactive,
but not at the expense of unnecessary replacements.\
Bill
On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 11:09:58 -0800 "Scott Daniel - Shazam "
<scottdaniel@turbovans.com> writes:
> Sounds like you're doing the right thing/s anyway.
> I'd just check for obvious weak hoses and things like that.
> I'm more of the school of 'keep tabs on things' and stay alert,
> As opposed to just replacing hoses and things that are still good.
> If you want to go replacing hoses that are still ok.......fine I
> suppose.
> I regard vanagon hoses as exceptionally well made mostly ....
> The only one I know of that is prone to failure especially is on
> automatic
> trans vanagons,
> - that hose over the bell housing and torque converter, other than
> that
> one, and carrying some good used spare hoses and clamps and other
> parts,
> like a spare t-stat say, ( or t-stat housing ! - or converting to
> the metal
> syncro one ) .....I just keep an eye on things.
> There are so many cooling system parts through out the entire
> van, you
> could never replace all of them proactively, it would be cheaper to
> buy
> another vanagon, there are that many plastic cooling system parts
> and hoses.
> Possibly a hundred parts or more, all together.
> There's this hose nipple like thing under the alternator, a small
> hose
> flange bolted to the block - some were plastic, and they break.
> I've
> gotten replacement ones that were metal.
> You might want to check that.
> It's rare, but that plastic water distribution box on the firewall,
> right
> side, underneath where you can't see it too well, I've not seen one
> fail,
> but I've heard about it.
> It goes on and on, so many cooling system parts you could almost
> never
> know that every last one is new or nearly new.
> I still invite, or defy, anyone to count, and come up with a number,
> of how
> many actual small and large hoses there are on an 86 or later,
> either syncro
> with rear heater, or auto trans 2WD with rear heater, vanagon.
> Engine and
> transmission area alone is about 15 or more hoses.
> scott
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> Behalf Of
> Bill Stokes
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:24 AM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Overheated Westy '87
>
> While crusin' over a long bridge I threw my belts and the
> alternator
> light went on first, then a few minutes later the temp light went on
> with
> about 2 miles left to be able to coast into a service station off
> the
> bridge. All the coolant was lost and it got so hot it melted the
> upper
> thermostat housing where the coolant escaped. Since this incident,
> I
> have put about 700 miles on the car in city and highway driving
> conditions keeping close tabs for any coolant loss under the engine
> and/or oil consumption. So far, there has been no evidence of any
> damage
> using these two criteria. The car runs as good as it ever did.
>
> My question is what areas should targeted for more trouble shooting
> since
> this car got very hot. Should all the hoses be changed because of
> the
> risk of integrity loss due to the high heat. Also, what other
> components
> should be checked if any. I don't want to have a catastrophic
> failure on
> a trip due to this heat event. I am thinking positively and feeling
> that
> after 700 miles, no fluid loss, good running, and no oil consumption
> I
> may have dodged the bullet. Any comments would be appreciated as to
> the
> best thing to ensure any future failures as a result of this event.
>
> Bill in St. Petersburg
>
>
>
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