Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:57:05 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Air mass meters Go Westy
In-Reply-To: <ac1f198b0712221614w570e1944yb034ed4ceae4996d@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Hey there jim !
I believe that's a turbo diesel AHU right at the top of my site.
Ah, I forgot the east coast rust factor. I think if you search you'll find
there is near endless subaru hot rodding and upgrades, in both the street
rod world, and in the aviation world.
Quite a bit actually. A stock based WRX ran 170 something ( !! ) in the
quarter at Las Vegas within the last two years. Stock-based car, can you
imagine that ?!
Also, you know they famous engine company, Cosworth, that cosworth, of
Formula One fame. They sell bolt on DOHC 2.5 heads that are built from
fresh castings, not modified stock units and these heads would be compatible
with 400 or much more hp.
I can't imagine where you are coming from here : " not much is known in the
aftermarket about tuning the subie ecu's(not much is relative, they know
quite a bit, but the info is scare, and not easily accessible)" I don't'
know what you mean by 'accessible' maybe you're referring to the internal
mapping of ecu's which I would expect people who do that to keep fairly
secret, but I could put easily 50 links right here to all kinds of hop up
subaru stuff. There's GOBS of it !
Ever hear of SubieSport Magazine ???
Similar in scope to Hot VW's and Dune Buggies ( which had a small pic and a
paragraph about my 1967 run in the very first Baja 1000 Off Road race, btw.
I ran my first car, a 56 chevy with 301 Chevy V-8 and 6 forward gears. )
..............and SubieSport is all about subaru's and performance.
There are MANY 500 to 700 hp WRX subaru's on the street.
So can't imagine what you are thinking saying there isn't much available.
On the SVX intake gizmo, yes, it's not a dual path, but as you say, dual
resonant, perhaps. I can only imagine it enhances low end in some small
degree without sacrificing high end - something like that. I shouldn't have
said 'dual path' . It's hard getting at the stuff under the intake manifold
with it on the engine, but it would be interesting to deactivate it to see
if it makes any difference in torque curve or drivability.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Akiba [mailto:jakiba@bostig.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 4:15 PM
To: Scott Daniel - Shazam; Vanagon Mailing List
Subject: Re: Air mass meters Go Westy
On 12/22/07, Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
> Hi Jim,
> Good to hear your thoughts.
> I'm quite aware of how 'bigger isn't necessarily better' just from
> things I read and study all the time. I have way to many projects
> going on to even be able to play with a soobie intake manifold and
> throttle body on a water boxer. Still seems that from the AFM to the
> intake ports on a wbxr there is a lot of room for improvement in flow.
> It's tempting, if one were to play with a soobie intake manifold on
> a wbxr, to adapt over the whole fuel and ignition systems too. The
> hardest part would be crank and cam sensors, and they crank shaft one
> wouldn't be that hard, leaving only a cam sensor to deal with, and
> since there's no distributor, a disc could be driven from the
> distributor drive for cam position sensing. It even turns the right
> speed - half crank speed. How handy !
I disagree, the electro-mechanicals would be easier than the
software-electro junctions... not much is known in the aftermarket about
tuning the subie ecu's(not much is relative, they know quite a bit, but the
info is scare, and not easily accessible). But again, these are things
we've thought about too... at that point just swap the whole subie in...
> I wonder what you mean by ' pin holing stock runners" - are you just
> trying to say they are small or what ???
No, around here they all have pinholes from rust.
> Re 'turbovans' for a name. I really think website addresses
> should be simple to remember, obviously fit what they are about, and
> catchy. I'd say if fits all those pretty well !
I was asking because I haven't actually seen a turbo van on the site.. maybe
I missed something?
> Btw, are you familiar with the gizmo in the SVX intake system ?
> Appears to be a two stage thing, for low end and high end power ?
> Like dual path system. I've never seen much about it, but there is a
> flapper system of some sort in the plenum.
Yeah that IRIS system, I don't know too much about it either, but it appears
that it isn't really a dual runner, or variable runner setup, but maybe just
a variable resonance setup, which would still help achieve better low end
torque, since it is built primarily for mid-high end and low end torque
would suffer with a fixed runner or fixed plenum size.
> And what's really needed for wbxr's is OHC 4 valve heads of course,
> then intake and exhaust could be matched to take advantage of the
breathing and
> rpm capabilities. It's only one part of an engine to build. Would
require
> starting with a fresh casting I'm sure, like make that from scratch
> which isn't cheap unless the numbers are up there.....but that I can
> see. Then the only really bad think left would be the joke head
> 'gasket' system. I can imagine a plate that turns the top of the
> block/barrel area into a flat surface so you can have 'real' head
> gaskets and a flat sealing surface for it on the engine side of the
> head.
Ah you mean like the closed deck subie motors like the STi... yeah if you
want a boxer in there closed deck is the way baby!
> Lot of work, and expensive, but without changing some fundamental
> things about the wbxr you sort of can't get anywhere really.
> Given that it might not be a horribly hard job to adapt a subaru
> intake system to wbxr, and IF there was time for such foolishness, it
> would be an interesting experiment. Possibly some gain with out major
difficulty.
> Clearance above the engine is the biggest challenge I see. I wonder if
the
> wbxr ECU will fire the soobie injectors ?
I agree with you.. not worth it. Fun yes, interesting yes.. but still
totally not worth it. And keeping the bosch ecu? Wha? it's one of the worst
parts of the system! Besides all the other components of the system ha.
That's like going in for a heart transplant and trying to keep your old SA
node... insanity!!
Jim Akiba
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Akiba [mailto:jakiba@bostig.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 4:15 PM
To: Scott Daniel - Shazam; Vanagon Mailing List
Subject: Re: Air mass meters Go Westy
On 12/22/07, Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
> Hi Jim,
> Good to hear your thoughts.
> I'm quite aware of how 'bigger isn't necessarily better' just from things
I
> read and study all the time. I have way to many projects going on to even
> be able to play with a soobie intake manifold and throttle body on a water
> boxer. Still seems that from the AFM to the intake ports on a wbxr there
is
> a lot of room for improvement in flow.
> It's tempting, if one were to play with a soobie intake manifold on a
> wbxr, to adapt over the whole fuel and ignition systems too. The hardest
> part would be crank and cam sensors, and they crank shaft one wouldn't be
> that hard, leaving only a cam sensor to deal with, and since there's no
> distributor, a disc could be driven from the distributor drive for cam
> position sensing. It even turns the right speed - half crank speed. How
> handy !
I disagree, the electro-mechanicals would be easier than the
software-electro junctions... not much is known in the aftermarket
about tuning the subie ecu's(not much is relative, they know quite a
bit, but the info is scare, and not easily accessible). But again,
these are things we've thought about too... at that point just swap
the whole subie in...
> I wonder what you mean by ' pin holing stock runners" - are you just
> trying to say they are small or what ???
No, around here they all have pinholes from rust.
> Re 'turbovans' for a name. I really think website addresses should
be
> simple to remember, obviously fit what they are about, and catchy. I'd
say
> if fits all those pretty
> well !
I was asking because I haven't actually seen a turbo van on the site..
maybe I missed something?
> Btw, are you familiar with the gizmo in the SVX intake system ? Appears
> to be a two stage thing, for low end and high end power ? Like dual path
> system. I've never seen much about it, but there is a flapper system of
> some sort in the plenum.
Yeah that IRIS system, I don't know too much about it either, but it
appears that it isn't really a dual runner, or variable runner setup,
but maybe just a variable resonance setup, which would still help
achieve better low end torque, since it is built primarily for
mid-high end and low end torque would suffer with a fixed runner or
fixed plenum size.
> And what's really needed for wbxr's is OHC 4 valve heads of course, then
> intake and exhaust could be matched to take advantage of the breathing and
> rpm capabilities. It's only one part of an engine to build. Would
require
> starting with a fresh casting I'm sure, like make that from scratch which
> isn't cheap unless the numbers are up there.....but that I can see. Then
the
> only really bad think left would be the joke head 'gasket' system. I can
> imagine a plate that turns the top of the block/barrel area into a flat
> surface so you can have 'real' head gaskets and a flat sealing surface for
> it on the engine side of the head.
Ah you mean like the closed deck subie motors like the STi... yeah if
you want a boxer in there closed deck is the way baby!
> Lot of work, and expensive, but without changing some fundamental things
> about the wbxr you sort of can't get anywhere really.
> Given that it might not be a horribly hard job to adapt a subaru intake
> system to wbxr, and IF there was time for such foolishness, it would be
an
> interesting experiment. Possibly some gain with out major difficulty.
> Clearance above the engine is the biggest challenge I see. I wonder if
the
> wbxr ECU will fire the soobie injectors ?
I agree with you.. not worth it. Fun yes, interesting yes.. but still
totally not worth it. And keeping the bosch ecu? Wha? it's one of the
worst parts of the system! Besides all the other components of the
system ha. That's like going in for a heart transplant and trying to
keep your old SA node... insanity!!
Jim Akiba
