Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:27:15 -0500
Reply-To: Jim Akiba <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Jim Akiba <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Subject: Re: 1985 Vanagon - Ford Focus Engine alternative
In-Reply-To: <001701c8548f$1cc79ec0$6601a8c0@TOSHIBALAP>
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On 1/11/08, Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
>
> This is quite a claim ( and I have great respect for your commitment and
> abilities jim )
>
>
> " .....anywhere after 100k it's worth swapping the engine to
> another low mile one so you have another new engine in the van,
> especially since it is about the same price and same labor as doing a
> timing belt on the other options."
> So, you're saying buying a low miles used Focus engine and swapping that
> long block into a Zetec vanagon is about the same price and labor as doing a
> timing belt job on say, a subaruvanagon ?
You're right to stop this going through unquestioned. It'll depend on
the experience level, the specifics and the installer. But if the
question is can I, Jim Akiba swap a whole zetec in for about the cost
and labor of you Scott Daniel doing a timing belt on a subie
properly(things we each know well) then I say yeah. I just bought a 7k
mile zetec two weeks ago for $240 to the shop floor.. delivered. The
average is $425, all under 10k miles. How much do the subie parts
cost? On my 97 outback it was about $400 for everything from a dealer
for the belt and waterpump(this was in 02). The zetec will be back on
the road while you wait for the anaerobic sealer on the pump to cure
as well... good thing that won't be included in the cost. I totally
understand how you're skeptical, and that's fine. I've done subie
timing belts, and major repairs but wouldn't even suppose to render a
judgement unless that was true. Speculation will only get you so
far.You've never seen a zetec conversion in person have you scott?
That is going to change in May... so cherish your skepticism, for soon
it may fade away ha.
If we're talking about someone else doing the work.. then very likely
then too.. as the labor for the zetec swap is around 6-8 hours, and
you don't need to be at a foreign auto repair shop to do it. If labor
rates are commensurate with what they are around here, then I still
contend it's too close to be of consequence between the two.
> Care to mention some numbers, like dollars for parts and labor time ?
> And include fluids and filters and miscellaneous small parts of course.
> And yes, I do know exactly how expensive a 'full boat' SVX timing belt
> job can be - like if you do 'everything* there....guide wheels, tensioner,
> water pump, seals, inspect oil pump screws and seals......etc etc. ....you
> could end up with a $ 1,500 dollar timing belt job, so it is feasible that
> you could equal that cost for a long block swap. But that's also the
> extreme high end on subaru timing belt jobs.
Hmm... high end? Never heard the term "high-end" used for a timing
belt swap ha... I'll say then that the low mileage zetec swap is also
high end because everything on the motor goes back to low miles when
you swap that puppy out... there is no low end I guess because the
high end is so inexpensive too.
> Mostly they'd fall in the few
> hundred dollar range on the more common 4 cylinder engines.
Yeah same with the zetec whole engines.
> It's all fun. Nothing is especially 'better' than everything else. They
> all have upsides and downsides. It is good though of course to really
> believe in what you support, develop, and sell.
True enough.
> Why are there not more Zetec conversions ? Maybe there's bunches of
> them on the east coast, but I get the impression there are only a handful of
> them running.............?
There aren't more because we've only been around for 2 something years
now... and we had to learn how to become a manufacturer all the while.
The numbers will change.. there's one more while I was writing this
email that's 2% growth in user base right there.
> I believe I'm on a group list about them, and there's no traffic on that
> list. It seems there are hundreds of soobie conversions, and tdi's, on the
> other hand.
You're likely on the yahoo group that someone set up, nobody uses it,
they use our site or our google group for the Core installs. Nobody
knows exactly how many of each of the others are actually out there,
not many vendors share the exact info like we do, some can't because
they just sell the parts. Central Control of the development and
support is really beneficial when you're dealing in small numbers such
as this, and vital if you need to keep the pace of development
extremely high. That's why it took 10 years for a subie turnkey to
come out, it took us 9 months from scratch and we still did it before
the subie... and it's funny because now we are moving to the kits
form.. instead of the subie which started as a kit and went the other
way. Much higher success rates starting with the turnkey and moving to
a kit as it allows, than the other way around. I would bet that our
success rate percentage wise is substantially higher than the other
conversion, but there is no way to know for certain because of the
lack of complete information on for the others.
Jim Akiba
