Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:40:56 -0500
Reply-To: Jim Akiba <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Jim Akiba <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Subject: Re: 1985 Vanagon - Ford Focus Engine alternative
In-Reply-To: <4237.192.168.0.115.1200087049.squirrel@hasenwerk.homeip.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Sorry David, perhaps it was my fault for not explaining it better.
Email is tough.
A highly modified engine to any gearhead means work on to the
shortblock and at least the longblock(little help gearheads?). Bolt-on
power adders such as a supercharger or turbo kit are not strictly
considered engine mods, they are "bolt-on power adders" where the
engine is kept "stock" and parts are "bolted" to the stock engine.
There is a significant distinction, as the latter is far less risky
than the former.
Here's the scenario... this is what would go down in a normal
interaction about this subject:
person 1 line 1: "Hey what do you have in there?"
person 2 line 1: "A supercharged zetec engine"
person 1 line 2: "Nice, is the engine stock?"
person 2 line 2: "Yeah, stock motor, bigger injectors, bigger MAF,
custom tune.. but stock motor and head"
If you're email you said: "That's total turkey... you're comparing a
highly modified engine to a *stock* TDI engine. "
Now.. here's what it might look like with what you said in mind... BTW
I love Turkey, thanksgiving is my favorite holiday.
person 1 line 1: "Hey what do you have in there?"
person 2 line 1: "a highly modified zetec"
person 1 line 2: "oh, did you do forged internals?"
person 2 line 2: "no"
person 1 line 3: "cams?"
person 2 line 3: "no"
person 1 line 4: "big valves?"
person 2 line 4: "no"
person 1 line 5: "ported head?"
person 2 line 5: "no"
person 1 line 6: "what do you mean highly modified then?"
person 2 line 6: "it has a supercharger, bigger injectors, bigger MAF,
custom tune"
person 1 line 7: "but the engine itself is stock then?"
person 2 line 7: "yeah I guess so, if an engine with just a
supercharger or turbo is considered stock"
person 1 line 8: "well, a heavily modified engine denotes work in the
longblock, the supercharger is a bolt on... hence the distinction
between bolt-on mods and 'engine modification'"
And then finally we get to:
Person 2 line 1: "Installing on a larger VNT-20 or VNT-22 turbo, 12mm
injector pump, big nozzles, massive charge air cooler and custom
software on a stock block makes it a stock engine and better yet will
retain it's longevity? Cool!"
Person 1 line 1: "it's still a stock engine, but no the longevity will
depend on the quality of the implementation, and the factor of safety
built into the engine. Ceteris paribus, just by demanding more power
you will indeed lose longevity, but it isn't a linear function based
on power output, it all depends on precisely how the increased power
output is achieved, and even then this will differ across engines."
Jim Akiba
On 1/11/08, David Marshall <mailinglist@fastforward.ca> wrote:
> So let me get this straight...
>
> Installing on a larger VNT-20 or VNT-22 turbo, 12mm injector pump, big
> nozzles, massive charge air cooler and custom software on a stock block
> makes it a stock engine and better yet will retain it's longevity? Cool!
>
> Adding things to make an engine more complex isn't upping the odds that
> something is going to fail because to have more stuff to fail? Cool!
>
> David Marshall
>
> http://www.hasenwerk.ca
> http://www.fastforward.ca
>
> Box 4153, Quesnel BC, Canada V2J 3J2
>
> On Fri, January 11, 2008 12:37, Jim Akiba wrote:
> > On 1/11/08, David Marshall <mailinglist@fastforward.ca> wrote:
> >> If you bolted on a supercharger, it isn't a stock engine - period.
> >
> > I see your point, but to most, engine = longblock... so if a gearhead
> > sees a blower on an engine, they then ask "is the engine stock?"
> > meaning "are the internals, head, cam, etc" stock. The answer is yes.
> > YOU said "heavily modified" which means the opposite of a stock
> > longblock, in which internals are reworked. An engine with a blower is
> > not automatically considered a "heavily modified engine", but this is
> > more semantics. The point is anything more granular than the longblock
> > is never touched.
> >
> >> I'm not selling anything and I acknowledge that I am my own warranty
> >> with my
> >> own stuff. You are selling stuff and you are the warranty for that
> >> stuff.
> >> So what ever as far as I am personally concerned.
> >
> > It isn't whatever as far as you're concerned because you replied to
> > the thread with skepticism and and a negative opinion presented as a
> > blanket appraisal of the engine we use, so you do care... your
> > motives? Not sure.. but the result is useful. It gives me the
> > opportunity to defend us without just coming around every now and then
> > and dropping self satisfying spam bombs about how great our conversion
> > is onto the list.
> >
> >> If the stock engine you are installing isn't really up to snuff to be an
> >> IMPROVEMENT to the vanagon without bolting on superchargers, oil coolers
> >> and
> >> modifying software then you are adding more items to the equation that
> >> will
> >> cost more and can and will break and reduce the over all reliability of
> >> the
> >> Vanagon that is converted.
> >
> > I agree with that statement totally. But what you're implying couldn't
> > be more incorrect.
> >
> >> Let's not forget the original point that I was making here and that is
> >> Vanagons need the low end (in the 2000 to 3000 rpm range) power that a
> >> Diesel engine provides more than the high end power that most gasoline
> >> engines provide above 4000 rpm. I am not saying that ALL gasoline
> >> engines
> >> are poor - far from it, what I am saying is that without additional
> >> modifications to the engine most gasoline engines out there that will
> >> reasonably fit a Vanagon will not perform as well as a stock TDI.
> >
> > I agree with you, and nobody in vanagonland is typically the majority
> > in most anything they do. Doesn't mean it's inherently bad or good,
> > nor does it mean it's not possible.
> >
> >
> >> For me, an engine has to do the following:
> >>
> >> - Survive 20.000km a year for five years
> >> - Decent power below 3000 rpm to achieve better acceleration and hill
> >> climbing
> >> - Maximum power available close to highway rpm to achieve the best fuel
> >> economy and have the ability to pass someone without gearing down
> >> - Consumes less fuel both quantity wise and dollar wise than a stock
> >> wasserboxer
> >> - At the end of five years have the total cost of owner ship less than
> >> rebuilding a wasserboxer and feeding that wasserboxer fuel for those
> >> five
> >> years.
> >
> > That sounds good to me.
> >
> >
> >> The above can be done without a Diesel, but there are few engines out
> >> there
> >> that will do this.
> >
> > This is boring when I agree with you all the time.
> >
> >
> > Jim Akiba
> >
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