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Date:         Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:00:16 -0500
Reply-To:     Allan Streib <streib@CS.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Allan Streib <streib@CS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Diesel vs Gas Vanagons
Comments: To: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <014301c854d4$ba81ae40$6601a8c0@TOSHIBALAP>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

Agree, conversions will never "pay for themselves" in fuel. New cars won't either, in most (nearly all?) cases.

I somewhere between on the longevity issue.

Yeah a Mercedes diesel will go 400K miles or more with no bottom end work, if cared for. I doubt a VW TDI will. I have no hard data, just a gut.

On the other hand with todays manufacturing technology an engine should EASILY go well over 100,000 miles with normal care. Even the 1.8l 8v in my old '91 Jetta was approaching 200K miles when I sold it and I had never had ANY problem with it and it still ran as well as new from my perspective.

My sensibilities are that tossing a Zetec after 100K miles should not be necessary. However if you really can get a long block with under 10K miles for the prices Jim was talking about then you really have to question the financial wisdom of ever doing a major repair. We seem to have arrived at the disposable engine.

Allan

On Jan 11, 2008, at 11:36 PM, Scott Daniel - Shazam wrote:

> Of course, all conversions can't be justified by any cost savings > numbers. > Gas or diesel. > 'usually' you can show on paper that the 'payback' or break even > periods on > many investments - solar for the house, SVX engine conversion, tdi, > diesel > etc........If it was purely about dollars, we'd just drive some > beater we > got for 800 bucks, leaving us with 9,200 to spend on gas or diesel > fuel for > a long, long time ! > if you talk in purely dollars per mile............many > conversions or > even investments in cars, like tdi passats or whatever, do not 'pay > back' > for a long, long time. That's not why you should do it, cause the > real pay > back time is usually a 'long time' like you calculate here. > But, if one didn't have a vanagon in the first place, buying a > reasonably > good diesel one in the first place, for a reasonable price, and > hoping it > has no seriously major expenses as the years go by.............that > could be > valid. > But to convert a gas vanagon to diesel for 5k to 10K > dollars.........like > you show, you won't get that money back for a long, long time, and, > in my > opinion, ahem, you'll be putting up with some downsides that you > wouldn't > have in gasoline. In that case, it won't pay back just on fuel > savings. > Btw, Karl, I believe you said your tdi engine would last 300 to 400 > thousands miles. > Is that with reboring and new pistons or rebuilds or what ? I > believe you > had that Mexican 1.9 block break a main bearing support or > something like > that, then 6 months ago you had that crankshaft blow up > thing.............all of which points to the terrible stress diesel > engines > are under, especially if you hop them up, and push a big vanagon, > or heavy > syncro vanagon with one.....so if you did say 300 to 400K I'd have > to say > that's exaggerating a lot. > I can see that in as stock Jetta tdi car maintained > impeccably, driven > nicely, and driven longer periods of time, and not short trips > around town. > Or a Passat, but not a hopped up tdi engine pushing a big heavy syncro > vanagon. > In pure dollars per mile terms...............I've got this 84 > vanagon I > bought running pretty nicely for 250 bucks. As long as we can get > the fuel > ( ! ) .....let's see, against a 10K conversion that gives me > yikes, $ 9,750 > for fuel ! that'll go a ways ! > But we don't do them for fuel cost savings. We do them for > the great > reward of creating something useful and different, something we can > have > pride in. After all, anybody can just buy a stock newish high fuel > mileage > car - that's not so creative, but building one is ! and that's fun > and > rewarding. > It's all good, but the 300 to 400K miles, now I'm going to say > 'come on > Karl.' ............;-) > > And check out Jim A there - he thinks high miles on an engine are > dumb. You > just slap in a inexpensive low miles, very abundant cheap ford > focus engine. > He even thinks if the head has been off and engine they can never > be the > same again quite. > And cost wise- there's guys with 1.8 inline vw fours in vanagons > that say > they can get them all day long for 300 bucks, that they'll go > forever, and > they don't mind very high revs at all. > But it's all fun ! > Smiles, scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On > Behalf Of > Pensioner > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 4:53 PM > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: Re: Diesel vs Gas Vanagons > >>>> And if you only drive 10000 a year it'll take you 25 years to break > even. > By then, I'll be er ah pretty much way older, not as old as Unca > Joel but > older none the less. > > <<<< > > > There are a few other considerations worthy of note. How many > miles do you > drive your petrol vanagon per year? > > Diesel here in Governator Ahnold's hometown (Sacramento, CA) hovers > around > 3.60/gallon with petrol at 3.15/gallon. So you pay about 0.50 US > more per > gallon for diesel. > > If you drive 10000 miles a year and get say 20 mpg with yer gasser > that's > roughly 500 gallons 3.15/gallon so dividing 3.15 by half to get > 1.58 and > rearanging various decimal places you spend 1580 USD per 10000 > miles at > today's optimistic prices for gasoline. If you get 30mpg (very > optimistic) > with a TD or TDI on diesel then you buy 333 gallons of diesel for > that 10000 > miles. With suitable dividing of 3.60 by 3 to get 1.2 you spend > 1200USD for > the same 10000 miles with your TD/I conversion. Per 10000 miles > you save > 380 dollars over petrol. > > How many incidences of saving 380 dollars will you need to pay for > lets say > a 10000USD conversion. Just for an outside guess up the savings to > 400/10kmi. Jiggling the RCH just so and slippin and slidin shows > that a > mere 25 instances of that savings will pay for that 10000USD > conversion. > That works out to 25x10K mi or 250Kmi. You gonna get that many > more milas > out of your 20 year old 150Kmi vanagon? Perhaps. Then it would have > 400Kmi. > > Set up the model in your spreadsheet and tiddle the figgahs until > you have > your favorite alternate reality. Then toss in another 2500US to > upgrade > wheels, tires, and transmission (conservative estimate). > > If it makes you feel green to spend that kind of green, don't let > the math > dissuade you. > > It's still frydaye here in the not so golden state (14B$ projected > deficit). >


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