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Date:         Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:12:29 -0800
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Diesel vs Gas Vanagons
Comments: To: Jim Akiba <syncrolist@bostig.com>
In-Reply-To:  <ac1f198b0801112156w222ed707ja5b69886ad50fdbb@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Oh, sorry. Yes, you did not say it 'was dumb' to drive engines a long time. Sorry. No, I wasn't trying to start trouble. Civility is important to me. I don't do flame wars or insults generally. No harm intended.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I am not against your preference for swapping in inexpensive low mileage engines. I recognize that that is one of the main things you appreciate about the Zetec engine - huge numbers of them, pretty tough, easy to get. Fair enough ?

'more granular' ...........?? I think you mean 'more basic' perhaps based on your sentence after that one.

Well for sure, if someone says ......'I can do a ring and valve job on my engine or pick up a low miles junkyard engine with warranty for say, 600 bucks, which should I do ?" ........... I'd say if you just want it done and working well with the least effort, do the engine swap of course. If you want to have the reward of taking your engine all apart and re-doing most of it.....then do that. But the fastest easiest way to a nicely running van again is always a 'good used engine.'

Of course I don't think the average joe should be digging into their engine if it's not 'their thing' . where'd you get that ??

I do not disagree with you about the head thing especially. Perhaps we're in different worlds, but until you I've never heard anyone say that. I also am not involved with small displacement racing engines...........rice burner street cars with 400 hp etc. ........perhaps it's from that world . I mean, isn't it common to remove a head for port work or valve work to increase power, for example ???? If for my turbo Volvo sedan needs a head job, I sure won't feel like it is somehow 'compromised forever' . Much older tech engine of course. Might be a factor. I find it noteworthy that you say that that a re-done head is 'bad' almost. You seem to think I'm saying your wrong or silly about the head thing. . I'm not. I just find it noteworthy. Every tech has their own methods..........all good ones do. . What I admire is that they HAVE their own methods and beliefs, and get results. That it might be different than my method doesn't bother me. You know, if a focus owner drives up with a head gasket issue...........i or someone else might say 'head job' and you'd say 'new used engine.' .............both methods work. If you are adamant that they engine with head work can never be the same.............fine. Don't wish to argue it. I'm sure your view has great merit. Not saying it's wrong either...........surprising. thought. I'll say I've never heard anyone suggest it before, but you might be in a whole different environment that I am, and I don't know a thing about ford Zetec engines. They could be awful after head jobs for all I know. Just surprising is all. Rebuiders.........I sure don't trust many of them I'll say !! I almost never buy anyone's rebuilt engine. I did buy a vw rebuilt waterboxer for a customer a few years ago. Most of it looked new-new, and not rebuilt in any way. It worked out. Just a waterboxer.

All right, I see you have great appreciation for factory new things. It is after all, the trend in everything for them to be made and then disposed of when their life is used up. People don't rebuild computers for example. Its always cheaper to just get a newer and better one. It's going that way in cars too. But no need to be defensive. I guess my comment 'jim thinks an engine is never the same after the head is off' CAN be construed as ridicule almost, and I sure did not mean it that way ! And I can see how it might be construed that way, so sorry for making it seem that way at all. If find it interesting, and of course your argument about 'pressure mapping points' and all.........wow........no disputing that of course. I know you know what you're talking about. I sure never meant to imply otherwise in any way. Perhaps this is a factor - ALL the engines I'm ever involved with are 10 year old technology and have over 100K on them. I don't see 2000 and something 15K mile engines at all, tho someday I'll do a later subaru perhaps.............so 'it's normal' for me that they're older, or worthy of head work say. Like with 90's era subaru engines, and 80's waterboxer ones, 600 dollar low mile engines are not even an option, so there's no even thinking about popping in a newer low miles cheap long block. So it's not even normal for me to think that way, given the stuff I deal with normally. So I just find the mentality different than what I'm used to, and interesting, but certainly not 'wrong.' Very valid, especially with the availability and low cost with low miles. Ok now ? I hope so. No harm intended, or criticism. Scott Daniel Foss

-----Original Message----- From: jakiba@bostig.com [mailto:jakiba@bostig.com] On Behalf Of Jim Akiba Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:57 PM To: Scott Daniel - Shazam Cc: vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com Subject: Re: Diesel vs Gas Vanagons

On 1/11/08, Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote: > And check out Jim A there - he thinks high miles on an engine are dumb. You > just slap in a inexpensive low miles, very abundant cheap ford focus engine.

Please don't put words into my mouth, unless they are at least given the same thought that mine are. I never said it was dumb. Impractical? yeah Not worth it? yeah Why bother? yeah... dumb.. no as it's offensive and you're trying to start trouble where there is civility, or you're just being careless. Swapping the whole engine is a much easier and lower risk solution if your goal is reliability.

And at least you get to choose which way you want to go. If it was the case that the zetecs were also junk and only last 100k miles, then I would think twice.. but honestly, why would you involve yourself in a major repair for the same money and time as swapping the whole engine? Because the engine is heavier? That's the only reason i can think of.. if it's purely not practical given your situation.. but the engine itself only weighs about 250-280... totally managble without a lift or anything special. You can swap a zetec with a 4x4 that is long enough to span the engine bay and two ratchet straps of the walmart variety.

Dig into the longblock for major repairs and you need cleanliness, experience, and tools to do it correctly... R&Ring the whole engine will always be less work, less risk, with more benefit. For those that object to the idea of the "disposal" of the engine, it's simply not true. the engines get recycled just like the vast majority of the metal in a car. And since you never get more granular than the whole engine, if they can follow direction from us, and work a ratchet or wrench, literally anyone can do it. That's simply not true for major repairs, afterall Scott, you've commented many times about your attention to detail, doing things "right" and your experience. If it's the case that you think your average vanagon OWNER.. not tech, should be dabbling in anything deeper than the long block, then your role in the process is immediately in question.

> He even thinks if the head has been off and engine they can never be the > same again quite.

Moreover, I know that's true. Anyone that tries to tell you otherwise is simply selling rebuilds. The rebuilders with any integrity will tell you that it's true as well, you simply cannot compete with a robot when it comes to installing a head. This is a common understanding in the mainstream aftermarket.. unseal the longblock, it'll never be the same. I'm not making it up, and this is news to few. It doesn't take much of a leap to understand this point. Lot's of attention and caution is placed on clean and square surfaces, proper tightening sequences, proper parts, and proper torques. Everyone knows this. To suppose that that a machine designed solely for this purpose, that tightens all of the bolts simultaneously, in a clean factory, on a virgin engine that has never been heat cycled, with ambient temp sensing and compensation, pressure point mapping control, and load cells accurate to 100's of times better than the spring actuated torque wrench you have kicking around in your shop will not achieve the better seal... is just well completely insane to suppose. They will, they do. Some things should indeed be taken advantage of from the massive capital infrastructure the OEMs employ... certain parts like the engine and it's assembly are a couple of those things. This isn't to say you can't get value from rebuilding your engine, it all depends on what engine, and if it's practical, possible, or feasible to get another factory engine... for all other options the answer is a no. There is no option for what I'm talking about.

Jim Akiba


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