Date:         Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:55:45 -0800
Reply-To:     Robert Keezer <warmerwagen@YAHOO.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Robert Keezer <warmerwagen@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Diesel vs Gas Vanagons
In-Reply-To:  <ac1f198b0801112352u34fcb23fo8f050da84b497827@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

>So I just find the mentality different than what
I'm used to, and
> interesting, but certainly not 'wrong.'


The above statement by Scott in a way represents
the "generation" gap or technology gap if I'm
reading it right.


It can be a bit of an ego slap when you meet guys
25 years your junior who know as much or more
than you. We tend to think because of all our
years , we know more. And we probably do, about
old stuff that is. And the old way . Some old
things are basic absolutes. But there's a lot of
new stuff that the younger generation knows about
we don't .

We have been out of the education loop for a
quarter century or so.
Sure , many of us are well read and keep up, but
it's not the same as being born into it or a
recent cum laude.

We still think of computers differently. They
don't remember a time when they were without
them.

 The guys at Bostig are young. Visiting their
shop I was reminded of inventors. I have been to
many shops-inventors was never one of my
impressions at the majority of them.

Their business angle is correct-the low mileage
engine is a safer bet than the 100 k rebuild, on
average.
We have a machinist here that builds race motors,
old school , and his head and block rebuilds are
good. The guy hates computers.But where you live
it may not be so.

 When you embark on  marketing a conversion kit,
having  a new and broken-in
makes good sense.

Rebuilding takes more time, in a small shop like
Bostigs, space and time are of the utmost
importance .

Some of us older generation mechanics (I for one)
still use VHS tapes and still don't own a MP3
anything because cassette tapes and Cd's still
work quite well .

What I find when discussing technology with
younger mechanics or techs is that they know more
about newer technolgy than we pretend to.

Jim especially is very educated . He might not
have 30 years experience but after discussing
technology with him I felt like an ignoramous.

There's a tendency for the old guys who started
out as shade-trees to look down on the college
and tech eds because of their lack of experience.


After my visit last summer with the Bostig shop I
came away with a totally different impression and
somewhat chastened.

That Jim is willing to patiently engage in
discussion about this technology is admirable.
I was one of his skeptics off-list.

If we want to know more  should study hard a
listen well to the best knowledge  out there,some
of which is actually expounded here on this list.

 And waste less time debating who's mousetrap is
better.

As a final note, as explained to me by Jim and
Brady during my visit, that today's automobile
manufacturers are become less American or German
or Japanese every year.

Mergers like Chrysler-Daimler for example and
foreign out-sourced suppliers are becoming the
future in a global economy.

A Ford engine is a conglomeration of materials
and technology the world over. Where's the steel
in the block from? The aluminum? The rubber and
plastic?

I had a 92 VW Golf -the body was made in Mexico-
the dash was made in USA. Other parts from
Germany, France, Canada, etc.

Just like all these American brand names made in
China.
It isn't a German, Japanese, Korean, etc,- made
car anymore .

So now I can accept the inline-four Ferd motor
that looks a lot like a German inline four, can't
I?
That's it-when Ford eventually merges with VW ,
the new name will be Ferd, for Henry Ford and
Ferdinand Porsche.

Whaddya think?

Robert

1982 Westfalia





















--- Jim Akiba <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM> wrote:

> On 1/12/08, Scott Daniel - Shazam
> <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
> > 'more granular' ...........??
> > I think you mean 'more basic' perhaps based
> on your sentence after that one.
>
> No I really mean more granular as in a
> lower/deeper finer-grained
> level that normally composes a larger whole,
> but when taken apart
> becomes more "granular". A ball of dirt is a
> ball of dirt until you
> throw it at your classmate and it becomes dust
> on his jacket.
>
> > I'd say if you just want it done and working
> well with the least effort, do
> > the engine swap of course.  If you want to
> have the reward of taking your
> > engine all apart and re-doing most of
> it.....then do that. But the fastest
> > easiest way to a nicely running van again is
> always a 'good used engine.'
>
> Right, and are most guys that are contemplating
> an engine
> conversion(or who could benefit most) at the
> level where they would
> actually find it rewarding? Or would it turn
> into a
> totally-not-worth-it exercise where they learn
> how NOT to do it
> several different ways.
>
> > Of course I don't think the average joe
> should be digging into their engine
> > if it's not 'their thing'  . where'd you get
> that ??
>
> Well we are talking about average joe's I
> thought...
>
> > I do not disagree with you about the head
> thing especially.  Perhaps we're
> > in different worlds, but until you I've never
> heard anyone say that. I also
> > am not involved with small displacement
> racing engines...........rice burner
> > street cars with 400 hp etc.  ........perhaps
> it's from that world .   I
> > mean, isn't it common to remove a head for
> port work or valve work to
> > increase power, for example  ????
>
> No it's from the v8 muscle crowd too. That's
> why some guys like to see
> what they can tweak out of stock heads first..
> and compete with each
> other in that regard... keeping the heads as
> the final bottleneck..
> then they break into the longblock and go for
> the big numbers. It's
> common to port and polish a head, I've done
> many, but it's common
> knowledge that you're not going to get the same
> sealing as you did
> before you pulled the head.. this is especially
> true of the forced
> induction guys.
>
> >      If for  my turbo Volvo sedan needs a
> head job, I sure won't feel like
> > it is somehow 'compromised forever' .   Much
> older tech engine of course.
> > Might be a factor.
>
> More importantly very low power output per
> cubic inch. That's the
> distinction that might be what you're talking
> about... while still
> true, you may never notice it because the
> demands on the seal are much
> lower to begin with.
>
> > I find it noteworthy that you say that that a
> re-done head is 'bad' almost.
> > You seem to think I'm saying your wrong or
> silly about the head thing. . I'm
> > not.  I just find it noteworthy.
>
> For instance, one of our customers also has a
> new beetle. His timing
> belt broke and we have lot's of funny shaped
> valves.. and kissed
> pistons. The dealer was ready to replace teh
> head for $4k. I told him
> look... it's a turbo engine.. it'll never seal
> the same, and for about
> the same money you can have a replacement
> engine that is factory
> sealed. I wasn't about to do a head for him..
> I've done plenty of
> heads, and done plenty of whole engines.. the
> whole engines don't have
> problems, redone heads (not mine ha) often do.
>
> >     Every tech has their own
> methods..........all good ones do. .  What I
> > admire is that they HAVE their own methods
> and beliefs, and get results.
> > That it might be different than my method
> doesn't bother me.
> >   You know, if a focus owner drives up with a
> head gasket issue...........i
> > or someone else might say 'head job' and
> you'd say 'new used engine.'
> > .............both methods work. If you are
> adamant that they engine with
> > head work can never be the
> same.............fine.  Don't wish to argue it.
> > I'm sure your  view has great merit.  Not
> saying it's wrong
> > either...........surprising. thought.
>
> Keep that in your head.. and lurk on other
> boards.. this isn't "my"
> idea by any means... I'm equally as surprised
> that you've never heard
> it before me.
>
> >      I'll say  I've never heard anyone
> suggest it before, but you might be
> > in a whole different environment that I am,
> and I don't know a thing about
> > ford Zetec engines. They could be awful after
> head jobs for all I know. Just
> > surprising is all.
>
> No, it's not the zetec specifically, it's any
> engine. And it's even
> more important in engines made in  the  last
> 15-20 years which is when
> two things happened. One the quality of the
> factory assembly work went
> up quickly, and two, the output per cubic inch
> went up.. making the
> results of that fact more prevalent.
>
> > All right, I see you have great appreciation
> for factory new things.  It is
> > after all, the trend in everything for them
> to be made and then disposed of
> > when their life is used up.  People don't
> rebuild computers for example. Its
> > always cheaper to just get a newer and better
> one. It's going that way in
> > cars too.
>
> Kind of, but it isn't an appreciation of
> "factory new things" it the
> appreciation of *certain* factory utilized
> technologies and process
> controls that impress me.
>
> >   Perhaps this is a factor - ALL the engines
> I'm ever involved with are 10
> > year old technology and have over 100K on
> them. I don't see 2000 and
> > something 15K mile engines at all, tho
> someday I'll do a later subaru
> > perhaps.............so 'it's normal' for me
> that they're older, or worthy of
> > head work say.
>
> I think that's right... although I'd push the
> date further back than
> just 10 years... this is almost identical to
> what I wrote above...
> interesting. That may be it indeed.
>
> >   Like  with 90's era subaru engines, and
> 80's waterboxer ones, 600 dollar
> > low mile engines are not even an option, so
> there's no even thinking about
> > popping in a newer low miles cheap long
> block.  So it's not even normal for
> > me to think that way, given the stuff I deal
> with normally.
> > So I just find the mentality different than
> what I'm used to, and
> > interesting, but certainly not 'wrong.'
> Very valid, especially with the
> > availability and low cost with low miles.
>
> Perhaps I'm too paranoid but as I mentioned
> this is all new.. this
> idea, this capability, this approach. People
> know you're posts, they
> look to you for technical guidance, so if you
> are a skeptic others are
> more likely to trust it as well and feed into
> the natural
> skepticism... so it isn't that I'm particularly
> offended, but my
> response in this situation is as natural as
> yours.  Any idea of merit
> should be able to withstand all kinds of
> skepticism, but it is much
> harder to turn it around in people's minds if
> objectivity is destroyed
> by the right(or maybe wrong?) person's
> skepticism and crystallizes
> into another's belief system, the incumbent
> ideology seems to usually
> have an advantage unless people are actually in
> distress.
>
> Jim Akiba
>



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ