Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:30:30 -0500
Reply-To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Urban Legend RE: NO starting when cold and Gasahol?(long)
In-Reply-To: <E1JJCiR-0005d6-Tz@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
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Max,
I know this has been haunting you for a while.
Are you able to attain sufficient cranking speed?
Are you maintaining sufficient battery voltage to get good spark while
cranking?
Does the haltech have some type of fuel enrichment for cold starting?
Maybe a fifth (cold start) injector can be set such as from the air cooled
or CIS vehicles. These can be easily wired as they really operated
separately from the fuel injection. The thermal time switch basically
operated the injector under 40F and the starter is operated. Fuel would
stop after 20 seconds of cranking.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Max Wellhouse
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 1:57 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Urban Legend RE: NO starting when cold and Gasahol?(long)
Scott: It sucks coming in on the middle of an on-going discussion,
my bad I guess..
At 03:20 PM 1/26/2008, you wrote:
>Well, since you park by a house, you could just use an engine block
heater -
>I have a couple that just bolt right onto the bottom of the block of a
wbxr.
That would work at home, but our work parking lot is is huge and very
wind-blown, so heating isn't the be all end all.
>2. 'something' is not right in your van, it should start pretty easily
and
>run fine from very cold.
Agreed, but I'll explain about Haltech and all below.
3. if you are 'so sure' it's your fuel, buy some racing gasoline and try
>that, for example.
You're sure more octane will do the trick? Below you say to stay
away from premium gas. I don;'t understand.
>4. what is this haltech thing ? I fine tune waterboxers and keep them
dead
>stock, and they work fine.
www.haltech.com I bought this current haltech E6S from Gene
Berg Enterprises back in 2001. it's basically an engine management
system that has fuel and ignition advance maps(one for each 500 rpm
)you program yourself. The newer ones use Windows, but mine is old
enough that it uses DOS. I drove to Omaha to have a dyno head tune
it properly a couple years ago. Since then, my old laptop that has
DOS doesn't "communicate" with the ECU and therefore I can't make
changes for temp and cold start etc. Mega squirt and several other
companies make these things for race cars and street
applications. At the time, the Haltech wasn't any more money than a
new Bosch brain, so that's what I did.
>5. what does the inside of your fuel filter look like ??? water is
suspect,
yeah, they will get changed today or tomorrow, I have a metal Wix
above the pump and a metal Bosch after the pump(stock)
>as you say.
>6. try different brands of gas. Don't know if you have Arco, but they are
>always cheaper and I have gotten bad Arco gas. I'd go to Chevron for now.
DO
>NOT use premium !
don't have either Chevron or Arco here
>
>7. gauge senders have nothing to do with the engine starting or running.
The
>ECU temp sensor has everything to do with it.
I mis-spoke I guess. The sensors I was referring to are the air temp
and coolant temp sensors for the Haltech. It uses a MAP sensor for
engine load and a TPS for idle through WOT. I don't have the VW
airflow sensor, Idle stabilizer valve, or air idle speed thingie in
the mix right now. If that's the entire problem, I could engineer
something as Haltech has outputs to run all those things. I don't
mind sorry idle issues until the motor warms up. I can live with
that for now. Once warm, it idles fine. Gas mileage is not what I
would like, but replacing the O2 sensor hasn't helped there and I
suspect that the tuner in Omaha set the engine up to run a little
rich to avoid burning something up
>8. weak/funky air flow meter ? It's a weak link.
See above
>9. Pretend I wrote this 6 times............CHECK THE BASICS. Always,
always
>go back and check ALL basics, grounds, compression, spark plugs, plug
wires,
>fuel filter, etc. etc. etc. etc.
BTDT. Haven't checked compression in a while, but could do that
this weekend. I will take the entire fuel system off the van this
weekend and seal up any vacuum leaks that may be there.next phase is
to run a new black wire from the ignition switch to feed the coil
and ensure 12v. to the ECU unit. Moving the fuel pump power wire
and the ecu wire from the alternator might help too as during start
up, the voltage drops there for sure. The coil, plugs, ignition
wires(BREMI'S), cap and rotor are all new. Hall sender is like 3
years old and no cracks in the plastic plug. Injectors are OE and
have the full 228k on them, but I have pulled them within the last 3
months and their pattern looks good to me and they don't drip after
shutoff. The fuel pump comes on like it's supposed to at start up
and I have a dash gauge that reads both fuel and oil pressure with
the flick of a toggle switch. I have another VDO aftermarket gauge
that does the same for water and oil temp. The middle gauge on top
of the dash is a VDO Vacuum gauge that taps the line that goes to the
FPR. I have access to a lot of info while driving . Also in the
gauge stack(actually on the heater cowling) is a Halmeter that reads
fuel air ratio with 30 leds and it's own O2 sensor installed in the J
pipe before the cat. The throttle body is OE also and maybe it needs
cleaning. The little idle swtich and cam have been removed since
Haltech can't use that information. The battery is a year old
Interstate group 91 series which has more guts than the 41's . The
alternator seems to be healthy as does the VR and the belt is snug to
specs.
>
>10. you're missing something. I grant that the age of your van, the
>environment you are in, and the fuel available are all conspiring
together
>to give you this problem..........but.........it should still start
pretty
>easily, and run properly, and the older things are of course, the weaker
>they get, and sometimes 6 'half things' add up to what you're having.
>WARNING .........the rest of this paragraph may constitute 'rambling 'for
>some so stop reading right now ! ............
>................but people often think it's 'one thing' ...........and I
>USUALLY find it's one kinda significant thing, and 5 half things. Most
>often. Like throttle switch, where's that ? check that ? they get off
all
>the time.
Agreed, and each thing I seem to do maybe helps a little, but the
same basic problem still exists.
>11.......................It REALLY HELPS if people would say what year
>vanagon, which year and model of engine, air cooled, 1.9 wbxr, 2.1 etc. I
am
>trying to zero in on what could be going on, and if you don't even say
which
>engine is it...........I got that it's gas and not diesel...........but
>really ........year and model/version of vanagon, and type of engine,
>please. If it's an air cooled one, I'd start with a compression check
>immediately, then go from there. Same for wbxr, but they are more likely
to
>have 3 pretty decent cylinders, and one 'sort ok' one. Very common.
>At least you said where you are, and that really helps too, knowing that
!
>
>My apologies to you for not being specific on engine and van
>MY. but this has been sort of an on going hassle and only the
>latest post in a long string of threads and I'm sure the first post
>I did list model year and engine size.
>
>I have a 90 GL with a 2.1 Boston Bob rebuild with about 70 k on it.
Maybe now the post you read makes more sense?
DM&FS
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf
Of
>Max Wellhouse
>Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 8:25 AM
>To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>Subject: Urban Legend RE: NO starting when cold and Gasahol?(long)
>
>Troops: In my never ending quest to figure out why my vanagon won't
>start below 10 F., I'm wondering if it maybe isn't something really
>simple(like some others have experienced here on the list
>lately). When we moved back to Iowa, I was pretty much told that I
>didn't need to use HEET or ISO HEET gas dryer agents in my fuel tank
>during the winter because I use the 10% ethanol gas at the pump. Is
>this fact, fiction, or urban legend?
>
>The reason I say this is during our most recent cold snap where the
>highs for the day were in or near zero, Putting the vanagon in the
>garage overnight was the only way it would start in the
>morning. Last week, with the high for the day being 7 F, it started
>with some coaxing in the workplace parking lot, but I drive home 10
>minutes and 3 1/2 hours later sitting in the driveway and temps below
>0 it wouldn't even cough or show any signs of spark or
>combustion.. With it sitting out on the street overnight and the sun
>shinning on it and a high of 4 F the following day(and the battery
>recovered from the previous drain), I was able to get it started, but
>it would not run at all in the lower RPM range(kinda like a cloggged
>cat makes the motor "run"). Watching the tach, it was hard to tell
>if it was dropping off due to ignition issues or just starving for
>fuel, but it took a while before it would run under a load. The
>fuel pressure gauge was showing low 20's once it would run with no
>load(like 2500rpm+), but once the VW factory temp gauge started to
>get close to the red light, it would attempt to idle somewhat. The
>vacuum gauge would read around 13" hg at 900rpm, so this weekend I
>will take everything off from the intake manifold to the air cleaner
>and reseal all vacuum lines/connections. That should eliminate that
>as an issue. Incidentally, the fuel pressure gauge got back to tehe
>more normal readings of 26-32psi(depending on load) once things warmed
up.
>
>The new cat from BD has less than 500 miles on it so I don't think
>it's clogged, yet anyway since it does idle after warming up.
>
>That leaves me with a sense that the fuel could be freezing due to
>water despite the 10% ethanol. I went ahead and put some ISOHEET in
>my tank this fill up yesterday, so we'll see if that helps. Temps
>will get to the low 40's by Monday and then turn down to single
>digits again by the middle to end of next week.
>
>Another thought is that maybe my water temp sender or my air temp
>sender on the Haltech ECU have failed or ar not giving the ECU the
>correct reading. Upon re-reading the Haltech installation
>instructions, they say to install the air temp sensor as close to the
>head as possible. Back in 2001 when I installed this thing, I may
>have taken the easy route and simply drilled a hole into the plastic
>air cleaner housing since living in Arkansas we didn't have any of
>the cold issues we have up here. Since I'm in somewhat uncharted
>ground here, I was wondering if I moved the air temp sensor to the
>big air box where all the air heads to the 4 air intake
>ports. There's a flat spot over by the #3 runner that would support
>having a sensor installed there, if I thought having the air temp
>sensor closer to the head like Haltech says to might help the
>situation. can't imagine the air in the plenum is that much hotter
>or colder during start up though. I'd be sure to test the sensor to
>make sure it works before I moved it to make sure that wasn't part of
>the problem.
>
>The water temp sender is in the same small diameter coolant hose as
>my VDO aftermarket temp sender(for the top of the dash gauge) so I
>don't think it's acting up unless it's not getting a proper ground
>due to the fact that it's not bolted to the engine directly. I
>figure that since there are two wires running to both the air and
>coolant temp senders, that one of them has to be a ground of some
>sort. I may put another ground on it if I have time just to
>eliminate any possibility of that being an issue.
>
>Anyway, I've got a full 3 day weekend ahead of me before things get cold
>again.
>
>Thanks for any support or options you may come up with. This Vanagon
>owner is totally baffled by all this.
>
>DM&FS
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