Date:         Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:50:39 -0800
Reply-To:     gfs@SCATTERCREEK.COM
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Gregory Smith <gfs@SCATTERCREEK.COM>
Subject:      Re: simple heat for stove top, e-bay
In-Reply-To:  <20080225220614.A78FF5B74B@mail1.kalama.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

This kind of "heater" is like a BBQ grill or kerosene heater, not safe for
indoor use unless the windows are open , so what would be the point?

CO buildup is silent and deadly, ask the folks who died in '06 using such
things to keep warm during our area's big power outage.  There's a good
reason heaters and other LP appliances are vented to the outdoors, as
clean as LP burns.

I wouldn't do it and wouldn't advise anyone else to try it.  My 2¢.

Gregory Smith
Olympia, WA 98506
'88 VW Vanagon 7P
'87 Bertone X1/9 Corsa

-----------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Feb 2008 09:08:40 -0800
From:    Michael Elliott <camping.elliott@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: simple heat for stove top, e-bay

Lemme see if I have the quoting (below) figured out, apologies if I've get
it wrong: Mike is getting a stovetop heater (E-bay item # 280201712547)
and will report on how well it works. Rob sez that an upended clay flower
pot over the burner works well, too. Dennis has a heater like (or the same
as) the eBay heater and reports that it does work well.

<Thinks out loud> As I understand it, the amount of heat that the burner
puts out is unchanged whether we plop a flower pot over it, use a more
complex gadget like the eBay heater, or just leave the burner alone. The
difference is that the heat from the naked burner is mainly in the form of
heated gases, which rise to the ceiling where they aren't very useful,
whereas the flower pot and eBay heater convert a portion of that heat to
radiant heat -- infrared radiation, like what we feel when we stand close
to a fire and (and not in the hot smoky gases). The flower pot radiates
heat in an omnidirectional pattern, with the lower half reflected off the
stovetop, and any surfaces that can "see" it will either warm up, heating
more air, or reflect the IR if they are "shiny" like the stovetop. That
eBay heater has a screen cone which also radiates IR in a spherical
pattern and the reflector behind the cone redirects about half of what
isn't shining on the stovetop in one direction, so if we aim it so it
"shines" on us, then we get the full benefit.

I like it! 5000 btu ain't too pitiful -- the little cat heater in Mellow
Yellow puts out 2800 btu max and it's not super comfortable in the van
when it's in the low 40's (F) to 30's and the sun ain't shining.

1 gallon of propane is good for about 96,000 btu so at 5,000 btu per hour
one gallon should last 19 hours-ish.

Moisture buildup will be a problem. CO shouldn't be a problem as long as
the stove's flame is that pretty blue which indicates proper combustion.*

O consumption and CO2 emission should be considered -- Alistair Bell hoped
to be able to provide some numbers comparing a human companion to a heater
in terms of O depletion and CO2/H2O emission, but I understand that he has
some cool new job that's taking up his time.

======
* That's my understanding, chemists or anyone who knows more about this
might want to post a correction if I am in error.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
74 Utility Trailer. Ladybug Trailer, Inc., San Juan Capistrano
KG6RCR