Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 18:18:09 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Cut tranny input shaft while still in tranny? (for engine
conversion)
In-Reply-To: <c4e7c5f90803071733j4e34a172icde48ab5c89fa71c@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi
This is all a bit weird.
What I do know is that the correct protrusion for a diesel vanagon type
input shaft is very close to flush with the bell housing face, maybe 1/16
inch short of that. You can stand the trans on the bell housing face on the
floor just fine, for example.,
If you are working with a DK, that was on an air-cooled engine, the input
shaft for those sticks out almost a half inch too much. ( 7/16 is close
enough to a half inch – it’s really about 12mm I think you take off. )
and– diesel flywheel, is that what you are using ?
if it’s some adapter kit or special flywheel, ignore this.
But the common thing is you have a trans and input shaft that was for an
air-cooled and it’s too long for a inline 4 engine using a diesel flywheel
and clutch.
And I’ll tell you about KEP, yes, engines and vw transaxles is ‘their thing’
and they don’t have their nose buried in vanagons exclusively like we do.
For example, when I bought a throttle body air duct for a Subaru engine in a
vanagon, they ask ‘air cooled or water cooled.” ?
So it’s a water cooled Subaru engine in an 82 diesel westy which is also
water cooled, so I say watercooled.
Well it turns out they offer a flat squished air duct that you would use if
you were putting a soobie engine into an air cooled vanagon, due to the
forward location of the transaxle in those, compared to waterboxer vanagons.
( makes the soobie throttle body very close the firewall ) . What they
don’t know is that the 82 diesel vanagon, while watercooled, also uses that
forward trans location compared to waterboxers.
So their real question should be 80 to 82, or 83 and up ?
But they are not clued in enough to make that distinction, and not
interested in the correct information either that I could tell.
As I turned out I really wanted the normal more gradually bent one since
someone had cut the firewall out anyway. If they just would have explained
it like I did here, I could have gotten the right part in the first place.
Anyone want to buy my unused air duct for a soboie engine in an early
vanagon ?
And just to give you an idea of Hobart’s way of thinking – I asked him why
waterboxers actually have the transaxle and engine sitting two inches
further aft than 80 to 82’s., because there is room for them to fit in the
more forward location, and that’s better weight distribution wise in the
vehicle.
The first words out of his mouth were about increasing the power of the
engine, and when they did that they had to have a water oil cooler for
automatic transmissions at the front of the trans,
Which is a round about way of saying that for 83 and up waterboxers, it was
convenient to mount all the engines and transmissions two inches more aft so
that the automatics could have room for a cooler there at the nose of the
trans – same thing, just a strange way to say it to me. One time calling
about a diesel application, I had to remind the person I was speaking to 3
times during the convo that it was about a diesel, and not a Subaru.
So be careful is what I am saying.
IF you are using a diesel vanagon type flywheel, I do know that ‘just a tad
short of flush’ is the right input shaft protrusion distance.
I just went an measured a dead stock virgin diesel vanagon , and input
shaft protrusion is 1/8 inch short of the bell housing face.
Maybe one of these days I’ll put my resume’ of 44+ years of racing cars and
motorcycles, , working on every kind of car there is, aircraft work,
fabrication philosophies, many engine conversions, and my personal driving
records on my website just in case that the fact that I probably know what
I’m talking about quite often is not self-evident enough just from what I
write. I do try to be very responsible about what I say, like if I’m not
sure when I write about something I will put “I believe’ and so forth. And
I don’t think I know everything, but I do know a thing or two and I’m
careful about what I say pretty much.
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
neil N
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 5:33 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Cut tranny input shaft while still in tranny? (for engine
conversion)
Interesting point about wear on the input shaft.
Re: cutting.
I checked with KEP. Their supplement "says" I need to cut it.
The original supplement that c/w the kit, basically says that '72 and
newer buses with type IV engines have longer input shafts on tranny.
They list the "Rabbit" engine as one that the longer shaft interferes
with. (I'm doing a Jetta) It continues to say "....... grind 7/16" off
the end of the original shaft so it only protrudes 9/16" past the face
of the transaxle"
A more recently edited supplement says:
"If you do not know the year of the transaxle then measure the
distance the input shaft protrudes past the face of the transaxle.
The '72 and newer sticks out more than an inch where all the older
ones protrude about ½".
The way I read it, it infers the amount to be cut, but doesn't give a
measurement.
Anyway. Not taking this "public". Just relaying what was sent to me.
Regardless, I need to clarify this with them.
But honestly I can't "see" why it needs to be cut. I am on the same
page with your thought that the plate adds distance thereby
effectively shortening the longer shaft.
Hmmmm......
Neil.
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Mark Drillock <drillock@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> If you are not changing over to the diesel bell housing, WHY are you
> shortening the shaft? AFAIK, the adapter plates for inline 4 cyls add
> enough thickness to make up for the longer wbx shaft. Maybe I'm mistaken?
>
> I have shortened several and also swapped in many shorter shafts when
> using a gasser tranny with a diesel bell housing since that needs to be
> done in such a situation. Lately I just shorten the shafts since this
> cuts off the part of the shaft that gets worn in the boxer setup.
> Factory short shafts are often worn also so cutting a long one puts a
> fresh surface where the pilot bearing rides.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
> neil N wrote:
> > Thanks Mark.
> >
> > Good tips. I was hoping I could cut in situ. It'll save a little money
> > (gasket/seal) and save some work. I'd rather take that money saved
> > from not buying the big gasket and seal and put it in a Dremel setup.
> >
> > I wondered if the shaft wasn't hard steel.
> >
> > Neil.
> >
> > On 3/7/08, Mark Drillock <drillock@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> I cut them in the tranny. I use a heavy duty cutting disc in a Dremel,
> >> while someone else turns the shaft. I work a ring cut deeper and
deeper
> >> as they turn one CV flange and hold the other still with the tranny in
> >> gear. The shaft is pretty hard and gets hot so I have a rag soaked
with
> >> water wrapped around the rest of the shaft and another that I use to
> >> periodically cool the tip.
> >>
> >> After the cut I use an angle grinder to put a bevel on the edge of the
> >> tip, again while the shaft is turned.
> >>
> >> The Dremel blade is an abrasive type with fiber reinforcing.
> >>
> >> Mark
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> neil N wrote:
> >>> Hi all.
> >>>
> >>> Am getting closer to mounting the Jetta engine so am researching
input
> >>> shaft stuff.
> >>>
> >>> Can I cut the input shaft while it's still in the tranny?
> >>>
> >>> It looks possible, but I don't know if hacksawing away at it is be
bad
> >>> for parts attached to it. Plus angling (shaping) the end might
present
> >>> a challenge.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks!
> >>>
> >>> Neil.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Neil Nicholson. 1981 Air Cooled Westfalia - "Jaco"
> >>>
> >>> http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
> >>> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
> >>>
> > --
> > Neil Nicholson. 1981 Air Cooled Westfalia - "Jaco"
> > http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
> > http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
> >
>
--
Neil Nicholson. 1981 Air Cooled Westfalia - "Jaco"
http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
--
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2:01 PM
