Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 08:21:05 -0800
Reply-To: Jake de Villiers <crescentbeachguitar@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Jake de Villiers <crescentbeachguitar@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Engine Conversions
In-Reply-To: <ac1f198b0803040005x6794ff92l1c6bd69ddd17fc18@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Bravo, Jim, bravo!!
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 12:05 AM, Jim Akiba <syncrolist@bostig.com> wrote:
> Hmm, it's a good thing I don't take anything to heart via email,
> otherwise I'd have to say you kinda hurt my feelings in somehow
> supposing that we're "playing" rather than producing or marketing...
> although I fully understand why you might think so. It's true we
> haven't been doing much marketing recently really. I'm working on all
> the deliverables for the Bostig 2.0 revision launch which should be
> happening later this month, so it's almost time to see everything. But
> just so you don't have to speculate any longer, I'll bring you out of
> the cold and toward what's actually going on here.
>
> We've been heads down working on deliveries of the Bostig Core kits,
> and a few turnkeys here and there, but mostly a ton of development
> work has been going on. We're refining, redefining, and improving all
> aspects of the conversion and the business itself so we can take a
> stab at seeing black in 08. 52 conversions over 4 years is pretty bad,
> but from another perspective it's really good... and I have a certain
> aversion to selling things that offer average or below average value..
> which is actually a character flaw in business as it turns out.
> Anyhow in this grand experiment that is Bostig, we've gone from a
> couple guys with an idea that we wanted to pursue, and had to try and
> learn by ourselves how to do everything.. while it's true that I've
> been able to apply much of what I've learned previously too, the
> amount I've had to learn on top of it to even begin to make this all
> feasible easily starts to eclipse what I knew coming in... which is
> really great by itself.. it was either this, or go back to school and
> get a masters.. but this is WAY more fun, and I've learned WAY more
> than I would have pursuing a grad degree.. at least in comparison to
> friends that took the former route and casual comparison anyhow.
> Taking it from barely eaking by to stable business is nothing short of
> almost impossible, since that has to be done at the same time as all
> of the other bjillion aspects like actual production, development,
> and silly things like staying fed. The market is too small for the
> level of complexity of the product we are developing. It's simply not
> worth it from any point of view other than the challenge of trying to
> do the almost impossible.. and trying to do it really well.
>
> You're point about the other conversions having multiple vendors being
> an upside is understandable, but missing one important observation.
> From all that I've been learning and observing I think that a single
> entity, with cohesive development and direction, and more importantly
> centralized control and utilization of information will perform better
> in the environment and scope at which this market exists than
> otherwise. But it's not really important what I think. It will be for
> others to judge for themselves as they see the latest results over the
> next month or two as we roll out the Bostig 2.0 stuff. Hopefully they
> will see that both our pace of development and scope are completely
> different than the other vendors you speak of.
>
> Additionally, because we are the only ones handling all aspects within
> one brain-trust, if we were idiots it would fail horribly and
> quickly... but if we aren't idiots(which I'm still reserving judgment
> on because most of the time I'm nearly 100% sure I'm an idiot ha) then
> the output/work we do will be extraordinary in comparison with what
> else is out there, and hopefully we'll achieve new levels of
> completeness of thought since we are responsible for the entirely of
> it's development, planning, and production. For instance, when we
> first got started, I was under the impression that the other
> conversions suffered from one chief flaw from an ideological
> standpoint. I felt that they were surely missing one of the most
> important areas of attention, which was that it isn't just about
> choosing a replacement engine. It's also just as important to address
> the engine management side of things. Not only that, but you have to
> consider both at multiple stages such as pre-sale, install, and
> maintenance. You can have the greatest engine ever known to man, but
> if you have crappy old wires, or don't have control of the engine
> management to tailor strategy to serve your implementation... well it
> doesn't matter how great your engine is. If either of the two main
> areas of attention are weak at any stage, well you're only as strong
> as that weak link... that's what I thought when we first got going.
> But then I realized what I'd also missed.
>
> There is one more equally important part of the equation, which if
> left a weakness can ruin the product of any really good combination of
> the first two aspects across any of the stages as well. There aren't
> two parts across 3 stages... it isn't just engine mechanicals and
> engine management.. there are three parts. Engine mechanicals, engine
> management, AND the operator, across all stages of involvement
> pre-sale, install, and maintenance. The one thing lacking in a big
> way is a concerted effort to really educate and train operators, and
> provide them with the precise information they need to reduce risk,
> and improve the system as a whole... I thought we had already started
> work on the "wholistic" approach to conversions when we were the first
> guys to address engine management and try and apply the same level of
> importance as mechanicals, and regard the maintenance stage as just as
> important as the install and initial decision making stages.. but
> still we were missing that last piece. In retrospect it seems so
> obvious.. and it's honestly a bit embarrassing that we got this far
> without spotting it as the huge upside improvement potential that it
> is.. but better late than never I suppose.
>
> So in any case, in addition to the big revisions in the 2.0 from an
> electro-mechanical standpoint, from the manufacturing standpoint, and
> from the engine management standpoint, we're also now tackling in a
> big way the proper informing of the operator. In the 2.0, we are
> aiming to have each operator at the end of their builds informed with
> 3 pronged information about each important aspect of a conversion, at
> each stage... that is worth knowing to reduce total risk. They will
> have the most comprehensive combination of mechanicals, management,
> and information ever assembled for a conversion... by a lot. They
> should be able to answer, what, why, and how about everything
> important to the conversion at any stage in it's lifecycle. The
> biggest problem would be since the amount of information that needs to
> be covered by including this 3x3x3 information architecture is of
> course large... it might be lot's of time/work/money wasted if we
> weren't sure it is the right approach... but the good news is, we are
> already seeing this approach work.
>
> The Bostig Core first install groups have really served well in that
> regard. These guys are not having problems building their own
> turnkeys, sourcing their own engines etc because they have been
> provided the right information to do so.. and compared to what will
> eventually be covered they got by on really scant information at that.
> The majority of the information deliverables are still being built...
> but I think their own apprehension about being able to do the build
> disappears, and their confidence and understanding skyrockets... these
> guys(I hope to be forced to say people eventually by having a few
> women core builders)end up really knowing and eventually understanding
> their conversions. This is something the DIY crowd is also rewarded
> with if they persevere and work both smart and hard, BUT I think the
> success rate will be much higher, and the amounts of time, money,
> effort, and risk are significantly reduced with this unified
> masterplan approach(unless the plan or execution is junk then the
> whole thing falls flat on its face ha). All of this happens while also
> increasing the quality of implementation and end results. This is
> because they simply follow the workflow, and processes laid out by all
> of the focussed development work concerted by a single vendor, which
> has also never happened before.
>
> We provide everything that makes sense to, and still handle the
> complete wiring harness build, but for the 2.0 it's designed from
> scratch for our application and built specifically to put a zetec in a
> vanagon, no re-routing, no re-pinning, a complete,custom, brand new
> harness designed and built just for this purpose(this is/was of course
> impossible at the production volumes we're talking about, until we
> actually pulled it off to prove it wasn't impossible afterall).
>
> But the addition of the 3x3x3 scoped, operator inclusive conversion...
> this is where the value really starts to grow. The whole give them a
> fish(actually sell them a fish I guess) vs. sell them the tools and
> know-how to allow them to fish like we do is a huge value compared to
> not doing so. It can make situations trivial that could otherwise be
> showstoppers. It empowers the owners and repowers the vans.. all
> vanagon nuts appreciate self sufficiency more than you're average
> bear... so why not include/address/enable that too? I would guess
> that no other group of people are more eager to learn and embrace this
> kind of information than vanagon nuts. Some people love it so much
> they don't actually do much with it and just sit around conversing
> with other vanagon nuts about this type of information!
>
> It seems to me that not only is there value in the information that we
> pass along, but that it is actually really fun and rewarding to
> understand how this stuff works... it's not hard, it's not
> complicated... but there is a lot to it, and it has to be broken down
> for easy consumption.. something which can take enormous amounts of
> courage and effort to do without really good guidance. On top of that
> it's much more efficient to have a couple people pull together really
> thorough information and really make a point on it's accessibility vs.
> the virtual every man for himself approach. The info might be shared,
> but it is still the case that enormous amounts of repeat work and
> re-discovery go into other approaches, that by definition alone is
> less efficient without even beginning to examine the results.
>
> So anyhow, as a payoff for reading this mess, I threw a couple links
> to some draft materials that nobody else outside Bostig and our inner
> circle have seen yet... so you guys can have a look at what we've been
> doing in our play time. As we roll out more, and as soon as the new
> website is up and ready I'll be sure to follow-up lest Scott think
> we're just playing on a dyno all day long with our mythical
> conversions(couldn't if we wanted to, it's $100 an hour, so it's in
> and out... very focussed and not nearly as much fun as it could be,
> hey maybe that's why nobody else even bothers to use a dyno ha, I'll
> glady sac my time and money for accuracy and real information over
> speculation any day).
>
> Jim Akiba
>
> Bostig Core master parts list current v1.0 revision(6MB)
> http://www.bostig.com/files/Bostig_Core_Master_Partslist_r2.pdf
>
> Bostig Core Cooling Sub-Kit(#2 of 7) Assembly DVD sample(115MB)
> http://www.bostig.com/files/rough_cut_SK-C.wmv
>
> Bostig 2.0 all new one-piece, 1045 steel billet flywheel
> http://www.bostig.com/files/rev2_flywheel.JPG
> http://www.bostig.com/files/rev2_flywheel_back.JPG
>
> Bostig 2.0 mounting setup CAD drawing, increases departure angle even
> with full capacity rev 2.0 wet sump, even further gains with dry sump.
> Hydraulic mounts, cradle provisioned for optional rock bars to tie
> forward and aft.
> http://www.bostig.com/files/rev2_cradle.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/3/08, Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > If you are addressing my comments , well....of course you don't get the
> > adapter plate from any car parts dealer.
> >
> > Nor the flywheel I imagine - though Kennedy probably sells an adapter
> and
> > flywheel for that engine to a vanagon transaxle, they do that for scads
> of
> > engine types, onto vw tranaxles, that's 'what they do.' I image you
> could
> > get something from them for that part.
> >
> >
> >
> > And you could fab your own engine mounting system, exhaust system, and
> air
> > filter system and so forth.
> >
> > Must be that there's not a lot of history of people doing that.
> >
> > It's surely doable.
> >
> > 52 kits.
> > One could get the impression there's more 'play time' going on on the
> dyno
> > than on production and marketing of kits, but that's fine !!
> >
> > I'm sure that part is MUCH more fun.
> >
> >
> >
> > The world low cost engine is excellent. For sure. No doubt about it.
> >
> > You know how some people resist Subaru in a vanagon because it's not
> german
> > and Volkswagen. ? .....being very anti-American car I think I resist
> the
> > 'ford' aspect of it.
> >
> > I have always sought the 'perfect' donor engine - about the right
> size
> > and power, readily available, inexpensive, and durable - this would
> meet all
> > of those requirements.
> >
> > I'll bet I could sell lots of those kits.
> >
> > Scott
> > www.turbovans.com <http://www.turbovans.com/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf
> Of
> >
> > Peter Young
> > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 5:27 PM
> > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> >
> > Subject: Re: Engine Conversions
> >
> >
> >
> > True, there are several choices for Subaru conversions but this
> probably has
> > to do with all the different ways to do the conversion. With the Bostig
> kit
> > parts aren't really a concern because the adapter plate that enables
> the
> > zetec to mate with the stock VW tranny is the only engine part that you
> > can't get from any ol' car parts dealer. Every other component on the
> engine
> > is a stock zetec engine part (except the exhaust, but again any exhaust
> shop
> > worth its salt could handle that). The other benefit is that the zetec
> > engine is a "world car" component - meaning that Ford uses it in all of
> the
> > focuses, and Ford sells the focus in every market that it is in around
> the
> > world. So, in theory, if you were to convert your westy into a
> amphibious
> > vehicle and circumnavigate the globe in it you would be able to find
> parts
> > nearly everywhere you went. Not that you would need them - according to
> the
> > Bostig website, they have been trying to destroy the engine in the test
> > vehicle for years to no avail!
> >
> >
> >
> > I also found on the website that only 52 kits have been sold so far,
> which
> > probably explains why so few people have seen one.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> >
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >
> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1308 - Release Date:
> 3/3/2008
> > 10:01 AM
> >
> >
> >
>
--
Jake
1984 Vanagon GL
1986 Westy Weekender "Dixie"
Crescent Beach, BC
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27
| 
