Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 19:22:47 -0800
Reply-To: neil N <musomuso@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: neil N <musomuso@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cut tranny input shaft while still in tranny? (for engine
conversion)
In-Reply-To: <07b501c880c2$aa003450$6401a8c0@DJZL7KF1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252
Useful info. Thanks.
That's interesting that the diesel input shaft is only 1/8" past face
of transaxle. I would have assumed it was more than that.
I think the key here, is for me to measure what I have and compare it
to the info I have from KEP.
Shouldn't be too hard to do. I have calipers, so I'll measure up the
depth of hole in Jetta crank, etc.
I figure that as long as there is a little wiggle room (1-2 mm?)
between bottom of hole in Jetta crank, and end of input shaft, that
should do.
Neil.
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Scott Daniel - Shazam
<scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> This is all a bit weird.
>
> What I do know is that the correct protrusion for a diesel vanagon type
> input shaft is very close to flush with the bell housing face, maybe 1/16
> inch short of that. You can stand the trans on the bell housing face on the
> floor just fine, for example.,
>
>
>
> If you are working with a DK, that was on an air-cooled engine, the input
> shaft for those sticks out almost a half inch too much. ( 7/16 is close
> enough to a half inch it's really about 12mm I think you take off. )
>
> and diesel flywheel, is that what you are using ?
> if it's some adapter kit or special flywheel, ignore this.
>
>
>
> But the common thing is you have a trans and input shaft that was for an
> air-cooled and it's too long for a inline 4 engine using a diesel flywheel
> and clutch.
>
>
>
> And I'll tell you about KEP, yes, engines and vw transaxles is 'their thing'
> and they don't have their nose buried in vanagons exclusively like we do.
>
> For example, when I bought a throttle body air duct for a Subaru engine in a
> vanagon, they ask 'air cooled or water cooled." ?
>
> So it's a water cooled Subaru engine in an 82 diesel westy which is also
> water cooled, so I say watercooled.
>
>
>
> Well it turns out they offer a flat squished air duct that you would use if
> you were putting a soobie engine into an air cooled vanagon, due to the
> forward location of the transaxle in those, compared to waterboxer vanagons.
> ( makes the soobie throttle body very close the firewall ) . What they
> don't know is that the 82 diesel vanagon, while watercooled, also uses that
> forward trans location compared to waterboxers.
>
> So their real question should be 80 to 82, or 83 and up ?
>
> But they are not clued in enough to make that distinction, and not
> interested in the correct information either that I could tell.
>
> As I turned out I really wanted the normal more gradually bent one since
> someone had cut the firewall out anyway. If they just would have explained
> it like I did here, I could have gotten the right part in the first place.
> Anyone want to buy my unused air duct for a soboie engine in an early
> vanagon ?
>
>
> And just to give you an idea of Hobart's way of thinking I asked him why
> waterboxers actually have the transaxle and engine sitting two inches
> further aft than 80 to 82's., because there is room for them to fit in the
> more forward location, and that's better weight distribution wise in the
> vehicle.
>
> The first words out of his mouth were about increasing the power of the
> engine, and when they did that they had to have a water oil cooler for
> automatic transmissions at the front of the trans,
>
> Which is a round about way of saying that for 83 and up waterboxers, it was
> convenient to mount all the engines and transmissions two inches more aft so
> that the automatics could have room for a cooler there at the nose of the
> trans same thing, just a strange way to say it to me. One time calling
> about a diesel application, I had to remind the person I was speaking to 3
> times during the convo that it was about a diesel, and not a Subaru.
>
> So be careful is what I am saying.
>
> IF you are using a diesel vanagon type flywheel, I do know that 'just a tad
> short of flush' is the right input shaft protrusion distance.
>
> I just went an measured a dead stock virgin diesel vanagon , and input
> shaft protrusion is 1/8 inch short of the bell housing face.
>
>
>
> Maybe one of these days I'll put my resume' of 44+ years of racing cars and
> motorcycles, , working on every kind of car there is, aircraft work,
> fabrication philosophies, many engine conversions, and my personal driving
> records on my website just in case that the fact that I probably know what
> I'm talking about quite often is not self-evident enough just from what I
> write. I do try to be very responsible about what I say, like if I'm not
> sure when I write about something I will put "I believe' and so forth. And
> I don't think I know everything, but I do know a thing or two and I'm
> careful about what I say pretty much.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
> neil N
> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 5:33 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Cut tranny input shaft while still in tranny? (for engine
> conversion)
>
>
>
>
>
> Interesting point about wear on the input shaft.
>
>
>
> Re: cutting.
>
>
>
> I checked with KEP. Their supplement "says" I need to cut it.
>
>
>
> The original supplement that c/w the kit, basically says that '72 and
>
> newer buses with type IV engines have longer input shafts on tranny.
>
> They list the "Rabbit" engine as one that the longer shaft interferes
>
> with. (I'm doing a Jetta) It continues to say "....... grind 7/16" off
>
> the end of the original shaft so it only protrudes 9/16" past the face
>
> of the transaxle"
>
>
>
> A more recently edited supplement says:
>
>
>
> "If you do not know the year of the transaxle then measure the
>
> distance the input shaft protrudes past the face of the transaxle.
>
> The '72 and newer sticks out more than an inch where all the older
>
> ones protrude about ½".
>
>
>
> The way I read it, it infers the amount to be cut, but doesn't give a
>
> measurement.
>
>
>
> Anyway. Not taking this "public". Just relaying what was sent to me.
>
> Regardless, I need to clarify this with them.
>
>
>
> But honestly I can't "see" why it needs to be cut. I am on the same
>
> page with your thought that the plate adds distance thereby
>
> effectively shortening the longer shaft.
>
>
>
> Hmmmm......
>
>
>
> Neil.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Mark Drillock <drillock@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> > If you are not changing over to the diesel bell housing, WHY are you
>
> > shortening the shaft? AFAIK, the adapter plates for inline 4 cyls add
>
> > enough thickness to make up for the longer wbx shaft. Maybe I'm mistaken?
>
> >
>
> > I have shortened several and also swapped in many shorter shafts when
>
> > using a gasser tranny with a diesel bell housing since that needs to be
>
> > done in such a situation. Lately I just shorten the shafts since this
>
> > cuts off the part of the shaft that gets worn in the boxer setup.
>
> > Factory short shafts are often worn also so cutting a long one puts a
>
> > fresh surface where the pilot bearing rides.
>
> >
>
> > Mark
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > neil N wrote:
>
> > > Thanks Mark.
>
> > >
>
> > > Good tips. I was hoping I could cut in situ. It'll save a little money
>
> > > (gasket/seal) and save some work. I'd rather take that money saved
>
> > > from not buying the big gasket and seal and put it in a Dremel setup.
>
> > >
>
> > > I wondered if the shaft wasn't hard steel.
>
> > >
>
> > > Neil.
>
> > >
>
> > > On 3/7/08, Mark Drillock <drillock@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > >> I cut them in the tranny. I use a heavy duty cutting disc in a Dremel,
>
> > >> while someone else turns the shaft. I work a ring cut deeper and
> deeper
>
> > >> as they turn one CV flange and hold the other still with the tranny in
>
> > >> gear. The shaft is pretty hard and gets hot so I have a rag soaked
> with
>
> > >> water wrapped around the rest of the shaft and another that I use to
>
> > >> periodically cool the tip.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> After the cut I use an angle grinder to put a bevel on the edge of the
>
> > >> tip, again while the shaft is turned.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> The Dremel blade is an abrasive type with fiber reinforcing.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Mark
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > >> neil N wrote:
>
> > >>> Hi all.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> Am getting closer to mounting the Jetta engine so am researching
> input
>
> > >>> shaft stuff.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> Can I cut the input shaft while it's still in the tranny?
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> It looks possible, but I don't know if hacksawing away at it is be
> bad
>
> > >>> for parts attached to it. Plus angling (shaping) the end might
> present
>
> > >>> a challenge.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> Thanks!
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> Neil.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> --
>
> > >>> Neil Nicholson. 1981 Air Cooled Westfalia - "Jaco"
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
>
> > >>> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>
> > >>>
>
> > > --
>
> > > Neil Nicholson. 1981 Air Cooled Westfalia - "Jaco"
>
> > > http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
>
> > > http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>
> > >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Neil Nicholson. 1981 Air Cooled Westfalia - "Jaco"
>
>
>
> http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
>
> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
>
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>
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.6/1318 - Release Date: 3/7/2008
> 2:01 PM
>
>
--
Neil Nicholson. 1981 Air Cooled Westfalia - "Jaco"
http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
| 
