Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:40:02 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Neil's motor..
In-Reply-To: <c280e73b0803271428p7a1f34c6j3e96d7524065f2b1@mail.gmail.com>
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Hi,
No, I wouldn’t say ‘severely compromised at all.
True, the engine extends aftward further being 6 cylinders instead of four,
but taking say two Syncro’s side by side, both with a rear engine mounting
system, and one a stock wbxr and the other an SVX ……….not a lot of penalty
really.
It tucks up in there pretty good.
There’s no room for a muffler inside the bodywork between the rear of the
engine and the rear edge of the engine compartment ….but with the right kind
of muffler tucked in the right place – no problmo really.
And…..when it’ll go 80 just anywhere, any time…………like if your on a freeway
hill going 60, and you want to go 80…..it ‘just does it’ …….effortlessly,
and that is SO rewarding. Oil pan has to be shortened of course, and other
than a less than ideal place for an across-the-back muffler, I don’t think
there are any real penalties fitment-wise. Fills up the engine compartment
nicely, and if done properly, is very easy to work on.
Scott
www.turbovans.com
-----Original Message-----
From: miguel pacheco [mailto:mundopacheco@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 2:29 PM
To: Scott Daniel - Shazam
Cc: vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com
Subject: Re: Neil's motor..
Scott, also, from just looking at it, the SVX conversion appears to have a
severely compromised departure angle due to the two extra cylinders. This is
just eyeballing it, though, and it might be an optical delusion...........
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Scott Daniel - Shazam
<scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
Given the overall height of vw inline fours,
It's easy to see why for the diesel vanagon they did the 50 degree install.
( a shallow wide oil pan is a disadvantage though )
Given that the whole van and engine bay were designed for an opposed four
engine an inline four is not really a 'natural.'
..............and, start comparing how far below the bottom of the
flywheel most engines extend. On a waterboxer it's about 3 inches or even a
bit less.
On all other 'normal engines' - line inline fours, and subaru's
too........the bottom of the oil pan as much as 6 or 7 inches below the
bottom of the flywheel. In subaru's we always have to shorten the pan a good
2 to 2.5 inches to get it reasonably close to what the waterboxer was, as
far as how far down the bottom of the engine extends.
The adapters allow for 22.5 degrees I hear also. Which could help for an
inline four.
Shortening the pan a little isn't too bad. On my Subaru conversions I do
that step totally at the very end of the project - when it's all running
perfectly, oil pressure is good, cooling system - all that, then last step
I shorten the pan as little as possible to fit the installation just right.
And an oil pressure gauge is a nice thing to have then too.
If you know what Departure Angle is in off roading..........
The pan sticks right down in a bad place - so it's not just that it's low,
it's also that it's low in a bad place. The best place for lowest ground
clearance is directly between the wheels ( left to right speaking that is )
......at least that doesn't reduce the departure angle at the rear - having
the pan or something else very low a foot or so aft of the rear wheels is
not desirable.
But progress is being made ! there is so much that can be seen in
hindsight so easily.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
neil N
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 7:13 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Neil's motor..
At this point, getting the engine higher and making the carrier higher
too, is a "next time" thing. That and actually getting the bottom part
of carrier level! --- :^) I'll be interested to see just how much
room is needed for clearance between oil pan and carrier when putting
the engine under a load. I actually went and watched my nephews' '02
Jetta just to see how much it moved when revved up. Of course it uses
much more modern stuff. Mounts included. But it didn't move too much
when revved up. Maybe after this is running, I'll look into correcting
the bottom part and moving it up a 1/2" or so. Maybe there's a way to
shorten the oil pan too.
Actually, while following some kind of passenger car today, I took
notice of how low the oil pan was. Still more clearance on my Westy
though. I do go on dirt roads sometimes, but if I can, I make sure
it's rated at 2WD. Lack of ground clearance or not, I hate the thought
of pounding my van on pot holes etc. any more than needed.
As for keeping it a "full" 2.0, the main reason was to not dick around
with swapping the head etc. And as I progressed, I thought it might be
useful to see just how many stock Jetta parts could be used. This
might help the next person should they decide to do this. More "one
stop shopping" using donor parts, possibly introducing less variables
when trying to get it to run, and potentially saving money using stuff
like the Jetta air box.
I must say, though a very premature comment, that next time, I'd do a
50 degree. (Heck for that matter, I might even do a Suby!) Or, find a
better way to fab the carrier so I could gain a couple inches.
But I really should wait til' I drive it before officially commenting. ---
;^)
Neil.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Scott Daniel - Shazam
<scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
> Neil
> That's great you are keeping the engine a 'full' 2.0.
> A common trick is to put a 1.8 gas head on a 2.0 gas block - that's for
> clearance at 50 degrees on the left side of the engine bay.
> I think it's great you're doing a 15 degree- and I wanna do one of those
> one of these days too - all my inline 4's have been at 50 degrees, and I
> feel there are real advantages to leaving it like it is, and standing it
up
> in there.
>
> And........whatever your cross bar deal is, and that you are happy with
it,
> that's all that matters...........BUT, ......I mean AND........regarding
> ground clearance.
> I was thinking about it the other night, and I realized in ALL car and
van
> installations by manufacturers......the pan is always the lowest part.
All
> support bars and gross members go around the pan. You don't have a cut
out
> in your pan since it's from a sideways front engine car........but, since
> getting the engine as low as is practical is always desired.......you
look
> under any car ......volvo, subaru, american front engine V-8, ......and
the
> pan is always the lowest part - just to get the engine low as is
practical
> and still have decent ground clearance.
> I think if it was my installation I'd be temped to make a cut out at one
> end of the pan, flywheel end probably, and run my cross bar through
there.
> On Subaru engine conversions, whatever support bar is used, it always
> goes around the end of the pan, either forward or at the rear, and the
pan
> is the lowest part.
> Anyway ! you having fun is the most important part.
> Oh......last thought, on 2WD I fudge the whole engine up as much as 2
solid
> inches - as long as the shift linkage angle doesn't get too extreme or
> weird, there's room to raise the engine quite a bit compared to stock.
> Scott
> www.turbovans.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf
Of
> neil N
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 8:43 AM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Neil's motor..
>
>
>
> Thanks for the tips Don.
>
> It's a different set up than a "diesel" type of install. It's a stock
> Jetta ABA 2.0 mounted at 15 degrees. Much more upright. Plus it keeps
> the stock 2.0 head and Motronic FI. This changes things a lot over a
> given VW I4 using a 1.8 head. But, it presents similar needs. Just
> different locations. That I can see........ so far!
>
> Appreciate you telling me what's in your rig. The ducting from air
> intake plenum to air box may end up being a combination of hard and
> flexible materials. This would enable me to use the stock air intake
> boot..... if my plan works that is!
>
> I've never seen brake ducting before, but I'll bet there's some kind
> of residential HVAC ducting I could use for both the air box snorkel
> and the ducting to the throttle body.
>
> Here's a couple of low res pics (less than 50kb each). In one, you can
> see how I've placed the stock air intake boot.
>
>
http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/Aircleanertestfitsmall.jpg/Aircleanertestfit
> small-full;init:.jpg
>
>
http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/Engineroughedin1small.jpg/Engineroughedin1sm
> all-full;init:.jpg
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Neil.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:46 AM, Don Hanson <dhanson@gorge.net> wrote:
> > Hey Neil,
> >
> > I haven't been bringing up your pics of the engine mounts, etc.
because
> I
> > have this *glacial* dial-up internet connection here at my house out
in
> the
> > sticks, but it sounds like you are well on the way.
> > A suggestion, as I see you mentioned connecting your air cleaner
> somehow.
> > In my inline four, the conversion was done when I got it, but the
> convertor
> > used thin-wall aluminum irrigation sprinkler pipe to fabricate the
> intake
> > runner from the airbox over to the plenum and it looks like it might
have
> > been fairly simple for him. The end result is quite sturdy to work
with
> > when you must dink around with it. My air cleaner is in the stock
> > position(?) and the 'duct work' crosses the engine compartment at the
> front
> > right along the edge of the access hatch, with another snorkel out of
the
> > aircleaner, made of brake ducting, going up into the right side rear
> body
> > vent for cool fresh air.
> > If your install is similar to the I-4/Diesel one that I have, don't
> > neglect to connect the engine mounts across under the motor. I came
very
> > close to having a huge headache when my right side (the longer one)
motor
> > mount sheered off the bolts at the engine block, due to it's
propensity
> to
> > twist without the cross brace to defer some of that force..
> >
> > Don Hanson
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Neil Nicholson. 1981 Air Cooled Westfalia - "Jaco"
>
> http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.0/1344 - Release Date:
3/26/2008
> 8:52 AM
>
>
>
--
Neil Nicholson. 1981 Air Cooled Westfalia - "Jaco"
http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.0/1344 - Release Date: 3/26/2008
8:52 AM
--
Gracias,
Miguel
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