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Date:         Tue, 25 Mar 2008 08:14:45 -0700
Reply-To:     neil N <musomuso@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         neil N <musomuso@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Should engine mount move this much? (PIC)
Comments: To: Mike <mbucchino@charter.net>
In-Reply-To:  <197d01c88e63$68c86850$0a00a8c0@OWNERMIKE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Thanks Mike and Scott for pointing that out.

I was going to have a look at ETKA at my parts guys place, as I don't have a Fox manual.

Good lesson there. Should have noted how they were installed in the Fox I pulled them from.

I haven't measured the bottom of the mount, but will be curious to see if the 2" box tube will be wide enough to support the mount when it is positioned inline with the crank.

One more thing to check!

Neil.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Mike <mbucchino@charter.net> wrote: > I, also, concur with the 'rotate the mounts 90 degrees' school of thought; > they're designed to be installed in-line with the crankshaft to absorb > torsional vibration. There should be little or no movement fore and aft, > which is what your current orientation is providing for. This direction > will tolerate a bit of angular misalignment in the direction that your > pictures show. > > Mike B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pdooley" <psdooley@VERIZON.NET> > To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> > > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:38 PM > Subject: Re: Should engine mount move this much? (PIC) > > > > Scott- what's so precarious about putting the mounts on top of the load > > bar? > > This technique reduces torsional forces since the mount is not > > cantilevered > > out in space. Maybe I don't understand what you mean. > > > > Also, what do you mean by "so the mount can fit flat"? > > The mount sits flush against the load bar at the same angle as in the > > original Fox fitment. > > Speaking of the Fox- the mounts are precariously perched on top of the > > sub-frame, not in welded-on cantilevered brackets. > > And perhaps you haven't seen the factory 'under-engine' cross bar > > waterboxer > > setup? Yep, the mounts are perched right on top of the load bar. > > > > Seems like building brackets is a harder way of doing things with no real > > benefit. > > > > > > > > I do agree with turning the mounts a quarter turn though. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of > > Scott Daniel - Shazam > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:15 PM > > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > > Subject: Re: Should engine mount move this much? (PIC) > > > > > > > > That's not how I'd do it at all. > > > > For the first thing ....if you are going to load it at a weird angle - > > make > > it so the thrust is against the metal sides, not the open rubber ends - so > > rotate the mount a quarter turn. > > > > > > > > But I wouldn't perch the mount on top of the bar like that, not if I could > > help it. > > > > I'd weld a bracket to the side of the bar so the mount can fit flat. > > > > Perhaps you haven't seen all kinds of cars and Subaru engine coversion > > 'under-engine' cross bars- but the mounts never perch precariously on top > > of > > the bar like that. > > > > They always and only go on a bracket welded to the side of the bar. > > > > > > > > Go buy some angle iron, about 3 X 3 incles...and at least 6 inches of > > length. Then make two 3 inch long 3X 3 inch brackets' > > > > Jig the whole think up in place...and make the mounts 'flat' not tilted. > > ( > > I'm a little disappointed in you ! ) > > > > Clamp angle iron brackets to the side of the bar where they belong, weld > > them there. > > > > You'll have to change the fore-aft location of your bar to do this ...but > > it > > will be worth it in the end. > > > > Scott > > > > www.turbovans.com <http://www.turbovans.com/> > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of > > neil N > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:24 PM > > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > > Subject: Re: Should engine mount move this much? (PIC) > > > > > > > > No need to go crazy --- :^) > > > > > > > > Here's the pic oriented (rotated) properly: > > > > > > > > http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/Onthelevel.jpg/Onthelevel-full;init:.jpg > > > > > > > > the words "Level ground" give a reference point of the "horizon". > > > > > > > > I took the picture on an angle. > > > > > > > > The angles where the arms of carrier meet plates is ok. > > > > > > > > I did almost exactly what you did. > > > > > > > > I built my plates/angle iron, clamped them in place (should have > > > > drilled and mounted with bolts) held up a piece of wood to mock up the > > > > carrier arm, cut, held up, cut etc. and figured out the angle on each > > > > side of vehicle where arm meets the plate/angle iron. Of course the > > > > other end was held up to bottom of the mounts. After getting each > > > > angle, tacked arms on plates, marked where the mount bolts go through, > > > > drilled etc., then added bar at bottom > > > > > > > > Here's what I think I did wrong. > > > > > > > > I had the engine suspended, and when I held the arm/plate/angle iron > > > > piece to the mount, I used the BOTTOM of the threads on mount as a > > > > reference for the mount bolt hole. Of course when the engine actually > > > > gets lowered, the bolt holes don't really line up. Hence the strain on > > > > the mount. > > > > > > > > The fact that when I checked the level of the engine, and found it to > > > > be lower on the PS, was a clue, I just couldn't see where I went > > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > How I corrected it. > > > > > > > > put carrier on with only DS mount installed, used a bottle jack to > > > > bring PS of engine up to get things level, measured level at tranny, > > > > (many, many times!) measured how large the gap was between PS bracket > > > > and carrier arm, (too large by 5/8") made up a piece of wood to go in > > > > place of PS mount, lowered the engine and checked level again. I added > > > > a piece of 2" box that is 5/8" tall. > > > > > > > > Or something like that --- :^) > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure it's right now. > > > > > > > > I hope! > > > > > > > > Neil. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 6:44 PM, pdooley <psdooley@verizon.net> wrote: > > > >> Neil, the cross bar is angled wrong. > > > >> That's strange, because your mock-up pictures looked really good. > > > >> > > > >> What I did: > > > >> Suspend the motor (attached to the transmission) in the proper position. > > > >> Attach the Fox brackets and rubber mounts. > > > >> With everything hanging in the air you can get a good feel on how to > > > >> position the bars. > > > >> > > > >> I started at the Van body, fabbed the mounting plates, then estimated > >> the > > > >> angle to cut the cross bars. > > > >> Made the cut, held the piece up against the hanging motor mount, made > > > >> corrections, etc.. > > > >> > > > >> What you have will probably work, but it would drive me crazy knowing it > > was > > > >> that far off. > > > >> > > > >> I would re-do it. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf > > Of > > > >> neil N > > > >> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:04 PM > > > >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > > > >> > > > >> Subject: Should engine mount move this much? (PIC) > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Hi all. > > > >> > > > >> What would a day be like without me asking these "one of a kind" > > > >> questions? --- ;^) > > > >> > > > >> Should the top half of this Fox engine mount shift this much under > > > >> weight of engine? > > > >> > > > >> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/tempfoxmountpics > > > >> > > > >> This is on my 15 degree Jetta engine install. > > > >> > > > >> I think I measured the position of the mounts incorrectly. I "leveled" > > > >> the engine, then made marks for mount bolts onto carrier. When engine > > > >> supported by carrier, the mount looks like it's shifting and engine is > > > >> no longer "level". > > > >> > > > >> I'm mentally challenged right now so opinions regarding mount shift > > > >> shown in the pics, would help right now. > > > >> > > > >> Seems to me that if positioned correctly on the carrier, then when > > > >> weight of engine is on them, it should compress the mounts toward the > > > >> carrier, but not shift like that. > > > >> > > > >> Loosing my mind.... ;^) > > > >> > > > >> Neil. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> Neil Nicholson. 1981 Air Cooled Westfalia - "Jaco" > > > >> > > > >> http://web.mac.com/tubaneil > > > >> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/ > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Neil Nicholson. 1981 Air Cooled Westfalia - "Jaco" > > > > > > > > http://web.mac.com/tubaneil > > > > http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG. > > > > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8/1340 - Release Date: 3/23/2008 > > 6:50 PM > > >

-- Neil Nicholson. 1981 Air Cooled Westfalia - "Jaco"

http://web.mac.com/tubaneil http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/


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