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Date:         Sat, 5 Apr 2008 01:42:21 -0400
Reply-To:     Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence
              was retained.
From:         Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Zincless Oil
Comments: To: Mike S <mikes@FLATSURFACE.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <20080403224605.3A9201165C3@hamburg.alientech.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_15W-50_.aspx

Mobil now claims their 15w-50 is now engineered for older vehicles that need more anti wear additives. It has a lot of ash (1.2%) to prevent ring sticking and oil analysis is showing it be well over 1,200 PPM zinc. It does appear to vary. Last sample for FUN BUS came in at almost 1,600. The Mobil 1 0w-40 is also up there. This issue with the ZDDP and ash is that it fouls the catalytic converters. The low ZDDP oils are still at 800 PPM and .8% ash so they are not zinc free. I also do not believe these modern oil cause engine failures. There are still modern engines that use flat lifters. Many after market cams are made from low quality cast billets with improper heat treat and that is why they often fail and these failures were a problem 25 years ago.

Dennis

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Mike S Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 6:46 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: Zincless Oil

At 04:18 PM 4/3/2008, Bob Stevens wrote... >If the container says SM on it, it's zincless; and must say SJ (?) to >be safe?

It is not that simple. There is no limit on zinc in any of the grades. There are limits on phosphorus, which limits the use of ZDDP (zinc dialkyl dithio phosphate), which is the antiwear additive that people are concerned about.

API SJ has a "non-critical" phosphorus limit of 1000 PPM (0.1%) for 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, and 10W-30 weights. It must pass the wear test of ASTM D 4485 Test Method Sequence VE.

API SL rated engine oils required minimum 800 PPM phosphorus (as part of ZDDP), _or_ a pass on the wear test mentioned above. It has the same "non-critical" phosphorus limit as SJ.

The API SM spec has a phosphorus limit of 800 PPM, for the grades given above. Other weights have no limit on phosphorus (or zinc). All weights require a minimum of 600 PPM.

None of the weights with a phosphorus (and consequently a ZDDP) limit are suitable for a VW aircooled engine. For the weights which are suitable, there is therefore no way to tell from the API grade how much, or how little, ZDDP is present, except that SM requires a minimum of 600 PPM (which is about 1/2 of what was typically found in the old, "good," oils).

In short, without an oil analysis, you can't tell.


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