Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:21:10 -0500
Reply-To: Dan Hall <elektro@WESTAL.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dan Hall <elektro@WESTAL.NET>
Subject: Re: '86 Westy cranking trouble
In-Reply-To: <c4e7c5f90804200951v3cd132b5xcaaf21f793427c63@mail.gmail.com>
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My van, an 86 was manufactured in November of '85.
Last 6 digits of the VIN are 031 388 which would lead us to believe it
should follow the Bentley for Vanagons up to VIN 055 690.
However, what I actually find on my van in many cases, more closely
fits vans from VIN 055 690.
In this particular instance, what I find in the relay box follows the
diagrams from VIN 055 690. I guess that the folks that record data
for inclusion in the Bentley had one too many biers on their lunch
break or some such.
The power to the coil comes in on a black wire that also splits off to
provide current for the crankcase ventilation heater unit--that also
follows Bentley for van from VIN 055 690
This afternoon, I tested the function of the ignition switch and all
seems well with it.
I then checked for constant voltage on the relays that feeds in on the
big red wires. Tested OK.
I pulled the 4 smaller gauge wires off poles 1 and 15 on the coil:
big green goes to Digifant unit.
little green goes to dash and I believe provides RPM signal to tach
and dynamic oil pressure system.
black is switched power from ignition.
black/yellow feeds power to the relays in the box over the coil.
Bentley says this should be black/white but mine is black/yellow.
The black power wire showed 12 plus volts.
I plugged it back onto the coil. Still showed 12 plus volts.
I then plugged the black/yellow back onto coil-----immediate voltage
drop to zero. Unplugged it. Voltage back to 12 plus volts.
Plugging in either of the green wires causes the voltage to drop to
around 8 volts.
I plugged all wire back up to the coil.
Just now, after pondering, I made up a jumper wire to run 12 volts to
the coil.
As soon as I reattached the ground strap to the battery, the relays
kicked in and the fuel pump cycled.
The van started up with no problem. and idled normally.
From that, I reckon I may deduce that my ECU, coil, distributor/Hall
sender are all OK.
But. I still am not electrically savvy enough to figure out why the
voltage is dropping with all wires to coil hooked up.
Is this condition indicative or a short to ground somewhere?
Any advice on how to locate it?
thanks,
Dan Hall
"Das Boot"
Then I tested the black wire for battery voltage with the ignition
switch on.
I
On Apr 20, 2008, at 11:51 AM, neil N wrote:
> Gold info man!
>
> I might add, that I found DeOxit to be an *awesome* contact cleaner.
> There is another product a list member kindly mentioned to me: Rid-ox.
> It may very similar, or the same.
>
> And thanks for clarifying Mark. One of my posts may have been
> misleading.
>
> I quoted from the "newer" version of '86 Digifant wiring.
>
> It shows a "keyed" (from 15) black/white wire from coil to "Digijet
> Control Unit Relay". If I'm not mistaken, power from this wire
> energizes the relay electromagnetic coil of this relay.
>
> But...... I just noticed that they labeled this relay Digijet, but the
> control unit is Digifant !!
>
> Yikes! Bentley '86 wiring diagram shenanigans! --- ;^)
>
> Neil.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 3:53 AM, Mark Drillock
> <drillock@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> As Neil pointed out, there are 2 very different wiring diagrams for
>> 86.
>> It sound like you have the early version of that wiring. What are the
>> last 8 digits of your vin# ?
>>
>> The 2 engine relays are mislabeled in the wiring diagram for the
>> early
>> 86!!! This is clear from the fact that the one labeled "fuel pump
>> relay"
>> is not the one that connects to the fuel pump wiring!
>>
>> The relay mislabeled "fuel pump" is really the "power relay" that
>> supplies everything in the early 86 model.
>>
>> Don't worry about relay socket 2 of the main fuse panel, it is
>> empty for
>> waterboxers. Also, realize that the green wires to/from the coil
>> are for
>> ignition pulses not power.
>>
>> Your use of a jumper wire to test and bypass is a great approach. You
>> are very close to fixing this I'd guess.
>>
>> You are not the first on this list to have a problem in the wiring of
>> the black twin relay box. Try unplugging the connector to the
>> outside of
>> the twin relay box. Look closely at both sides of the connectors,
>> clean
>> if needed and plug back in. It may be as simple as this.
>>
>> Power on from the key comes to the engine compartment on a black
>> wire.
>> On the early diagram there is a labeling error and this wire is
>> labeled
>> "sw" which is German for black. This error is on page 97.72, top
>> right
>> at connection pin D15. That is power on from the key which then
>> turns on
>> the "power relay" which is wrongly labeled "fuel pump relay".
>>
>> Again, most of the above is for the early 86 diagram and the wiring
>> in
>> this area changed drastically after a few months of production. The
>> later engine harness wiring is simpler and improved.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dan Hall wrote:
>>
>>> I have an '86 Westy Weekender, Wolfsburg edition---pop-top but no
>>> kitchen.
>>>
>>> In the past several weeks, I've had a mysterious, intermittent
>>> starting problem. The starter works and the engine turns over fine
>>> but won't crank.
>>>
>>> The fuel relays and, thusly, the fuel pump were not cycling when I
>>> turned the ignition switch.
>>>
>>> I discovered that if I lightly tapped on the fuel relay box above
>>> the
>>> coil with the key switched on, the relays would click on and the
>>> fuel
>>> pump would cycle and I'd start it up and off I'd go.
>>> Thinking it was bad relays, I bought replacements. That solved
>>> nothing.
>>> I've since bench tested the relays and they work fine.
>>>
>>> The big red wires that supply constant current to the fuel relays
>>> have
>>> 12 volts.
>>>
>>> There is a black/yellow wire that runs from the fuel relay to the
>>> coil. The Bentley says this wire is Black/White but mine is black/
>>> yellow. With the ignition switch on, I only had 5 to 6 volts on
>>> this
>>> wire. Tap the relay with power on and the relays work, fuel pump
>>> cycles. Then, I tried to start the van as usual after and it
>>> turned
>>> over fine but would not start. Now, that same black/yellow wire
>>> shows
>>> only 1.2 volts. The relays will not work, even with tapping.
>>> I plugged in a borrowed Digifant ECU but that did not help the
>>> situation. I put the old ECU back in.
>>>
>>> I ran a jumper wire with 12 volts to that black/yellow wire on the
>>> coil and the relays and fuel pump all worked nomially.
>>>
>>> I had a spare ignition switch and tried that but no joy.
>>>
>>> I've studied the wiring diagrams of the Bentley til I'm cross-eyed.
>>>
>>> Where does the coil get its voltage supply?
>>> ----My Bentley shows from a relay in the 2 position on the panel
>>> next
>>> to the fuses in the wiring diagrams but not in the legend of the
>>> same
>>> pages. And I've never had a relay in the 2 postion.
>>> -----I tested the resistance of the coil and it seems within
>>> specifications.
>>>
>>> What voltage should I have on poles 1 and 15 on the coil with the
>>> ignition turned on?
>>>
>>> I have thought about leaving the 12 volt jumper wire hooked up the
>>> coil and then try starting it but am holding off til I hear from the
>>> List.
>>>
>>> Any help, advice, guesses would be appreciated.
>>>
>>> Dan Hall
>>> '86 Westy Wolfsburg Weekender
>>> "Das Boot"
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Neil Nicholson. 1981 Air Cooled Westfalia - "Jaco"
>
> http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>
