Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 13:46:24 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: What could have gone wrong? - hey, sorry it's long
In-Reply-To: <ccd73a10805061301m2570dae2xaebf7e762582add8@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hey there,
Havn't been following too much lately, but it shounds like there is
mysterious and inconsistent overheating or 'running very hot' or
'unbleeding' going on perhaps.'
I would like to share how I precede............, say I was giving the van to
work on with this weird inconsisent coolnig system issue.
And I'll assume that it just doesn't' work like it should, and it's not an
obvious blown hose or stuck closed t-stat etc.
To be clear, it should run up to a decent temp, heaters should work fine,
the pressure bottle should stay full, and the overflow bottle should stay
around half full or so. No gurgling, no inconsitent heater performance,
etc.
About flashing coolant level LED's - I don't' trust them much. I have seen
the pressure bottle just fine and full of coolant, yet a flahsing low lever
indiction.
What I *always do* in all cases of all diagnosis of any problems.........it
take as much out of the picture as you can, to keep getting to the basics,
and try to get the basic system working. One of those, in my world, is
jumper the leads to the level sensor with a resistor. That will keep that
light off -( unless it's a dash or electrical problem ) - I just like it
out of the picture, temporarily, untl things are sorted though.
Next.......and first usually - you work on external coolant leaks. You MUST
have a pressure tester, and any cooling system should be able to hold 14 psi
or so for an hour, roughtly. With no external leaks. ( you can do this
with injectors removed, checking for a coolant leak into the combustion
chambers, though I've seldom found that )
Next, if no external leaks, you start thinking about thermostat, whether the
radiator is removing heat properly, the water pump is turning at suffecient
speed and has the correct impeller on it, and it's turning. I'll assume
'this problem' is more than a straightforward 'normal; cooling system
issues.
btw, 'just running very warm' ...........that falls under things like tired
ratiotor. 'inconsistent running, and air in coolant issues........that's
the one you hope you don't have. Often it's head gasket, or cracked head,
and exahust getting into the cooling system. What usually happens is the
exhaust displaces the coolant in the engine relatively easily ...........and
you've got overheating.
And when you check it out - it appears as hot engine, not too hot radiator,
exactly like the main piples where clogged.
I have driven a vanagon with this syndrome, exhasut getting into the
coolant, where I had to stop, cool off, re-bleed the system, like once every
40 minutes or so, to be able to sustain running without really overheating
badly.
The syndrome can be inermittant.
Stop leaks may help some, but the pressure in the combustion chamber is like
2,000 psi, not sometihg that a stop leak additive can help with much.
Bleeding, yup, it's gotta be basically bled.
But it unbleeds itself, or you need to bleed it 20 times, you start thinking
about exhaust gases getting into the engine at the head gaket, or head
itself.
Sometimes you can see bubbles coming out of the top hose where it goes to
the pressure bottle - if you see that, it's remove the head time, period,
no way around it.
It's a common failure btw.
'in the old days'.......coolant in the oil was a sign of a bad head gasket.
'milky oil' Somehow on modern engines that almost never happens, I've seen
honda's with totally blown head gaskets, the oil is fine, and many other
types of engine.
Another traditional sign was use of coolant.
It gets burned in the combustion champer and dissapprears. Sometimes the
tail pipe obviously smells like coolant, or there is white smoke.
If you get that, it's like a blown head gasket or head broblem.
That one you can pressure test for some - either standard pressure tester,
or leak down test, or even compression test. 'sometimes.'
But the 'weird one' and quite common - it runs inconsistenlty, you need to
bleed it a lot, nothing makes sense.
It's almost always exhaust gettting into the coolant.
A deffiniteve test for that is have the air space above the coolant in the
pressure bottle sniffed by a snog probe for excessive hydro-carbons.
You got that, you got the 'exhasut into the coolant heebie geebies.'
Another on is you buy a 'cracked block' test system, an additive that turns
yellow in the pressece of exhaust, and you sort of draw coolant up into the
deice where you can see it.
Oh yes, I see constantly where 'regular joes' at with there vanagons are
blocked due to lack of a few certain test tools.
You really can not get anywhere with out a pressure tester of some sort,
even a home made one.
You MUST have a Remote Starter Switch, and a compression guage.
A couple of other 'rules'
You can not operate a vw diesel without something for a thermostat in it.
It's a two door thing, allows 'flow around' when t-stat is cold between
engine and water pump housing. After it warms up, it blocks that circuit and
opens the main circuit. You MUST have a half decent termsosat, to be able to
run at all correctly. You want to run at 185 degrees F or so, even up to
195. If you have a weak one that only runs at 170 - and everything else is
OK,
It'll run too cool and that's all.
Its fine to bypass the heater circuit at the engine to take that out of the
system for a while - say you suspect air getting in at a heater core.
Oh - the pressure caps - the VW vanagon style pressure caps are not really
reliable. You should have 3 perhaps.
Sometime that'll be the only real reason coolant comes out.
Any smells of coolant anywhere - front heater core, rear heater core, tail
pipe, in the cylinders when you pull the injectors - all bad signs and you
can't have a really working cooling system with any of those going on. They
have to be fixed or bypassed or taken out of the circuit.
Any sign of coolant in a combustion champer or the exhaust system - pull the
head.
I think that's it.
Bottom line though .......if the head gasket and head are ok, the other
parts of the cooling system are at least working.....and it's even 'sorta
bled' it should work.
There's a lot of leeway in it. Yes, absolutely 99.9999 % perfectly bled is
what is really correct.
However, if everything else is fine, it can be 95 % bled and do just fine. I
don't consider bleeding that crytical at all, do it a time or two, that
should be it.
What I see people 'not having' is a proper procedural order, for one thing,
seriously that, and lack of a few bacic important test tools.
If I do give a 3 day 'waterboxer correct running and diangositics for no
starts and imporper running'seminar for vanagon owners hands on with their
own vanaongs............ there will be a guy standing at the gate, and if
you don't show him your Remote Starter Switch in your dirty little hands,
you don't get admitted. I'm dead serious. It is that useful a tool. Right
after a screw driver.
I use that tool abuot FIRST on just anything. I wouldn't dream of starting a
van from the key unless it was fully 'out on the road and done.' - i.e. in
'road mode' and no form of 'repair and diagnosis mode.'
I can not emphacize enough, the value of that one tool. I just never work
on a vanagon engine without using one, period. What you can bypass and take
out of the picture, and what you can see and do while using it, is just
fantastic.
Be clever too !
Scott
www.turbovans.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Roger Whittaker
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:01 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: What could have gone wrong?
dear dennis
thanks for the input ...
but no entry of coolant into oil system at all...
i went over entire engine several times since the last bleed off and yes my
California Model 5 speed diesel does have a buzzer for coolant ... the
trigger/sensor is located in combination with t valve off block ...
sensor/trigger in main reservoir on starboard side of engine compartment ..
there is another coolant mover located in the forward area topside of engine
compartment ... it is likely for the under the seat bus heater in rear or it
is a supplementary pump .. scott remarked on that item when i was there but
i dont recall what he said today and i was too focused on other items so i
dont even think the message he spoke got logged ... oh well next time i am
up on the hoist i will follow that to its source and end ...
again thanks dennis ...
by the way my oil buzzer did go off once with the 1.6 .. that scared the
willies outta me .. my over heat buzzer sounds a little different ...
;o)
yours
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 8:29 AM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> The buzzer is for the oil pressure, not coolant. There is no coolant
> buzzer. The oil pressure probably dropped due to the extended highway
> run time combined with an over filled crankcase and/or wrong viscosity
> oil.
>
> If the oil pressure buzzer was coming on due to a coolant system
> problem, you had some serious overheating going on there. Since you
> whent some 7 hours before the cooling system problem developed, there
> was not a problem with how the system was bleed. More likely something
> else is wrong such as loose heads, (failed inner gasket) or even
> cracked heads or something else allwoing gasses into the cooling
> system. A bad pressure cap can also allow coolant out and air back in.
>
> My point is that something is worng and can reappear at some point in
> the future.
>
> Dennis
>
>
> From: Roger Whittaker <rogerwhitt1@GMAIL.COM>
> > Reply-To: Roger Whittaker <rogerwhitt1@GMAIL.COM>
> > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: Re: What could have gone wrong?
> > Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 20:53:34 -0700
> >
> >
> > dear brattan
> >
> > the replacement of coolant ... so it appears ... causes the not
> > knowing to be at a disadvantage...
> > so i learned this year after an engine R & R ...
> > i was traveling along with out any problem and about 7 hours from where
> > we
> > set out ...
> > the buzzer went off at the same time as the red light ...
> > it was snowing and we were in the dallas, oregon... it was late at night
> > ...
> > i called the shop from which we had left and the boss said no worries
> > ..simply bleed it off ...
> > pardon i said ...
> > there is an air lock he repeated ...
> > i limped my way along replenishing the over heated coolant ... with our
> > bottled water...
> > with out making this story longer than it needs to be in the retelling
> > we
> > played with a lot of "fixes"
> > which included replacement of several parts at Scott Shazams shop
> > which i did myself ...
> > just outside oakland oregon we experienced the buzzer again ...
> > with coolant every where on the high way ...
> >
> > the next morning ...
> > with full reservoir we headed into oakland ... there were hills
> > everywhere well now i had even more info to go on ....
> > like where the blled screw was in the system ...
> > it reminded me of the steam /air relief screw on cast iron radiator
> > heating
> > systems
> > so i loosened the bolt ... let off theair and commenced running up and
> > down
> > the steep hills of oakland ...
> > then parked and relieved the system again ...
> > this i did again and again until we felt the wonderful warmth of heater
> > on
> > the windshield
> > and all has been well since...
> > and to his credit the guy from the shop who did the R & R handled all my
> > whines with a helpful alacrity ...
> > thanks phil of wagen works in garden city/boise idaho
> > good luck with your bleeding problem
> > yours
> >
> > On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:22 AM, P. Brattan <pbrattan@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for all your replies. The coolant, when the van was cold
> > > was about an inch or 2 above the maximum mark in both tanks. I
> > > didn't
> > check
> > > it hot because I didn't have a towel or glove at the time. The
> > mechanic
> > > thinks the sensor went bad, and will replace it. I'm not worried
> > about
> > > expense because I managed to purchase an excellent extended
> > > warranty when I bought the vehicle a year ago. It's covered for 3
> > > yrs (2 yrs
> > > remaining) up to 36,000 miles bumper to bumper without a deductible.
> > > Hopefully it'll be in excellent shape before the warranty expires.
> > >
> > > It's possible that the mechanic isn't familiar with bleeding
> > > Vanagon brakes, but he's specifically a German car mechanic, and
> > > has been in
> > the
> > > same shop for decades. One of the "issues" I had was that no
> > > matter
> > how
> > > I slid the sliders on the front air vents, hot air would come out
> > > each side. I didn't even mention this to the mechanic, but he
> > > told me that he would check for that problem and change a valve if
needed. When I
> > > picked up the van, that problem was fixed. I hope he really does
> > know
> > > his stuff, because he's in a very convenient location, and seems
> > > to be very professional.
> > >
> > > In the 70's and 80's I used to work on my own cars because they
> > > were much simpler than today's. Unfortunately, I've become lazy
> > > and try to avoid it whenever possible. I do have the Bentley,
> > > though, and also very much appreciate all of your explanations and
> > > help. When the warranty expires, I guess it'll be time to get gas
> > > and oil on my hands again!
> > >
> > > Patti
> > > ***************************
> > >
> > > Jaap Nauta wrote:
> > >
> > > > Probably bad sensor or contacts. If the needle stays in the
> > > > middle,
> > temp
> > > > is fine, and the red light indicates level too low. Level was
> > > > OK, so sensor is bad I guess.
> > > >
> > > > Jaap
> > > > '87 Caravelle diesel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I just had my radiator replaced by a German car mechanic near
> > > > where
> > I
> > > > > live. I took it it for a general maintenance checkup, and he
> > > > > said
> > the
> > > > > radiator was bad, although I never noticed any problem with it
> > before.
> > > > > Now, after picking up my Westy and driving only 1 mile, the
> > > > > needle
> > of
> > > > > the water temperature gauge goes to the middle, and a red
> > > > > light
> > starts
> > > > > blinking. I continued another 4 miles to my destination
> > > > > (church)
> > and
> > > > > after the service checked the fluids, and they were fine. I
> > checked
> > > > > behind the license plate, and another reservoir in the engine
> > area.
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course I'll be taking it back tomorrow morning, but I'm
> > wondering
> > > > > what could have possibly gone wrong. I have never before seen
> > that
> > > > > light blink. Could the sensor be malfunctioning? Thanks.
> > > > > Patti
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > roger w
> > There are two kinds of jobs in the world:
> > Picking up garbage and telling people things.
> > Successful people do both, with the same good attitude. (riw)
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > View the growing list of video work at:
> > http://revver.com/find/video/?query=LastonLastof&search_on=owners
> > and ... older work at
> > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7135104650374818257
> > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3259745150182742364
> >
>
>
>
--
roger w
There are two kinds of jobs in the world:
Picking up garbage and telling people things.
Successful people do both, with the same good attitude. (riw)
-----------------------------------------------------------
View the growing list of video work at:
http://revver.com/find/video/?query=LastonLastof&search_on=owners
and ... older work at
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7135104650374818257
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3259745150182742364
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 5/5/2008
6:01 AM
