Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 15:53:19 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Pwr Steering Rack Maint.
In-Reply-To: <48261C20.7080204@ucsb.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi,
Thanks for the good words.
I'd do one side at a time.
You could do both at once, but really, it's always safer to do one side,
then the other, in all two-sided systems, brakes etc.
Two wooden or metal yard sticks are fine enough.
There are dedicated 'expandable rod' systems for race cars and so forth, but
you don't need that.
Yard sticks are fine, decent ones anyway.
They problaby don't give them out at hardware stores anymore - lol.
They used too. Free advertisements.
Even a really straight piece of 1 X 1 wood that's about 10 inches too short
to span the distance, would be fine, then you use a small one foot ruler for
your measurements.
All you need to determine is the difference between the front and rear.
The front should be the same or a tiny bit smaller distance.
'noromal toe' for normal cars is 1/16th to `1/8th inch toed in.
1/16th inch is dead perfect, but that's pushing the accuracy limits of this
system.
Just measure it first, suspension fully settle, like only after driving and
parking it, see what you get, put it back there as long as it's not
something goofy like way toed in or out. I do 1/16th to 1.8th inch toed in
myself. Zero toe is all right - the idea is that the wheels get pulled back
a bit in flight, so static is to start with a tiny bit of toe-in.
If it's seems 'about right' , put it back right there.
No, don't go to an alignment shop unless they are friends.
They'll just try to sell you a front end rebuild.
But a good inspection is good.
They can check lower ball joints much better than we can in the back yard.
The right thing is, do your boots,
Check for other obvsious where, then get a front alignment.
They will try to sell you on anything that is not perfec.
We do want to know about a worn ball joint say, of course.
The lowers are not fun.
They'll even spot a cracked boot and say you need both lower ball joints
replaced and an alignment - 900 bucks.
On cracked ball joint boots - the uppers are easy , so just put in new high
quality upper ball joints. The lowers are a nightmare.
If all you have is a cracked lower boot, you get Motorcycle Chain Lube in a
spray can at a motorcycle shop, the best you can find.
It's formulated to penetrate and stick, and lube in a harsh environment.
Some people would say this is TOTALLY not cool, so for anal types - ja, vee
must replace the vorn parts with new GERRRMAN parts !
I have kept Mercedes rear CV joints and vanagon ball joints alive and fine
this way for decades. Just jack it up, give it nice stray treatment, twice a
year say, and you can go forever with that cracked lower ball joint boot.
Particularly if the environment isn't too harsh.
All bets are off in RUST situations.
Just hopeless to keep a care healthy in a severe rust environment.
I would just park it for the winter, and drive a rust beater,
Or a newer car or suv/van, and preserve the vanagon.
Just do a careful front suspension component inspection, ( the lowers are
hard to asses as they are hanging at an odd angle - or, jacking up the wer
arm until it's level helps, then check for play with a long bar )
On the alignment rack, they can check lower ball joints quite well.
But you don't want to pay for what replacing them would cost ! they are not
easy.
........
But replace all obviously worn stuff,
Do the boots, ball park the toe, and take it to an alignment shop,
And hope they don't give you a hard time.
One of my customer's vans I put in a whole 85 front lower suspension and
power steering. I knew an upper ball joint had a tiny bit of play. I had
already replaced 600 parts on the van and put 150 hours in it seemed (
converted to 5 speed trans, did engine work etc) so I sent it out like
that, telling my friend about the one 'not perfect-perfect ' part.
He goes to an alignment shop, they say we can't do it, loose upper ball
joint, and they wanted like 200 to do that and an alignment.
He came buy, I replaced just that one part in about 30 minutes, didn't even
charge him enough I don' think - lol.
He went back and they aligned it for 55 bucks,
And all is fine. They thing drive fantastically.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: John Goubeaux [mailto:john@ucsb.edu]
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 3:05 PM
To: Scott Daniel - Shazam
Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Pwr Steering Rack Maint.
Scott, Thanks for the detailed instructions!
So, I can undo the tie rod end in the manner you describe on both sides
? And two wooden yardsticks are the best measuring tool ? Overlap them
to get the measurement ? I'm inclined to bring it to an alignment shop
prior to boot replacement, get the measurement, then bring it back
afterward and check it, along with any other checks they can perform.
I do though understand your words of caution about trusting just anybody
these days as there are lots of "bogus professionals" out there as you
wisely point out.
-john
Scott Daniel - Shazam wrote:
> I would not expect Bently to have it detail at all.
>
> What you do is, identify the low pressure return hose at the Resevoir.
> The high pressure one going to the pipes has a metal fitting with hex nut.
> The low pressure one has a hose clamp.
> That's the line you want to open.
>
> Warning, don't try to undo it from the bottom of the reservoir. Those are
so
> stuck and heatened on there, you almost can't get them off, and you'll not
> get it back on either.
> Undo that at the pipe.
> Plug the hose you just took off.
> Put a long hose on the pipe and run that to a bucket or drain pan.
> Run the engine at idle and keep adding fluid to the reservoir it uses it
up.
> Run maybe 4 qts, at least of ATF through.
> Flush it for 5 minutes at least this way.
> Usually you can't tell a lot about the fluid, except maybe it will turn
from
> 'pretty dark' to not as dark, as fresh gets in and old goes out.
> Flush 5 qts though, I'll suggest that.
> Clean the screen of course.
> Clean out the bottom of the res.
> DO ad a high quality 'power steering conditioner' to the fluid when you
are
> done getting new fluid into it.
>
> Here's a cheater way to deal with the tie rods to replace a tie rod boot.
> 'normally' on would undo the outer tie rod end from the steering knuckle,
> then take that off the tie rod.
> No need to do that.
> Undo the 22mm lock nut at the outer tie rod end.
> CAREFULLY unscreew the tie rod from the outer pivot thing, counting how
many
> turns it takes to come apart.
>
> BUT FIRST ...........YOU COULD btw, measure toe-in before you take this
> apart.
> You do that with two yardsticks, with the van on a flat surface, and the
> suspension settled. You can't jack it up, then lower it, and then measure
> toe.
> You want it fully settled, I even stop it with the parking brake so as to
> not disturb the front suspension to do this measurement.
> Measure from mid point up from tire to tire, in front, then in back.
> As I said, two yard sticks.
> Measure it several times.
> What you should find is that it's up to an eighth inch or so toed-in, that
> is the forward measurement is that much less than the aft one.
> You might get zero toe, that's fine.
> You just want to know what it's been running at.
> Any worn ball joints or tie rod ends - forget it, you need to fix those
> first.
> So get the toe,
> Then undo the ball pivot end from the tie rod by unscrewing the tie rod
and
> counting the turns. Mark with paint first too, of course.
> The tie rod has to turn in the outer end of the boot.
>
> When you have that outer pivot thing off, take off the 22mm lock nut,
> Then you can remove the boot and put on a new one.
> I've had a hell of a time getting the new boot on the rack too, around
that
> lip.
> I've struggled an hour many times, on just one boot there.
> I've also gotten the wrong steering rack boot many times.
>
> I like to lube the rack gear a bit, but on PS I don't.
> Check for up-down play at the end of the rack - the linerar rack gear
should
> have zero up-down play.
> I've seen a solid 1/8th inch up-down play there from having a person who
> jerks the ( non-PS ) steering drive the car for year, or from running out
> of round or out of balance ties, or worn shocks.
>
> ( here's one for you, speaking of out of balance, I saw a Dodge 200
> Tradesman Van - those big old V-8 ones.......the RF tire was so violently
> out of balance at 60 mph, there was two inches of light showing under the
> tire every wheel revolution !!!! I looked at the two occupants - they
were
> oblivious. Had no idea - they just though 'a little vibration' was
'normal'
> These vehicles can kill other people on the road too of course, not just
the
> people driving them. )
>
>
> so just leave that outer pivot in the steering knuckle, measure toe first,
> count turns unscrewing the tie rod, replace the boot, put it back together
> counting turns to get it as close as you can to where it was.
> Check the toe to see that it's about where it was.
> You need to move the van at least 5 van lengths, driving it ideally, to
> re-settle the front suspension before re-checking toe.
> You can tweak the toe adjustment with it fully on the ground too.
> Best results are if you move it a few van lengths after each adjustment
> before re-measuring.
>
> ( I also have ways to check camber and castor with these back yard
methods.
> Those get awfully tricky as changing camber, changes toe and castor, etc.
> Just stick with toe adjustments. )
>
> Manual checking of toe is a valid measurement, and while medium crude, is
> quite effective.
> Regarding steering wheel centering.............. besides indexing the
> splines where the steering wheel mounts its shaft, there is even a way to
> figure out which side to lengthen or shorten to bring the steering wheel
do
> dead center going straight ahead.
> I'll share on that sometime if anyone is up to it.
>
> There are professional alignment shops that don't know how to center
> steering wheels, honest !
> Which is a joke, because that is fundamental to an alignment.
> I have also seen a woman come directly from an alignment shop where she
had
> 'an alignment' and there was a totally shot tie rod end pivot, with an
> eighth inch of play in it. Just no way to align that car. She got totally
> ripped off.
> Seriously, there is a huge amount of bogus professional care repair. It's
> scary. I've seen THOUSANDS of incidences of bogus and incompetent
> professional car repair.
>
> Scott
> With upwards of 30 + years of full time professional car repair.
> Vanagon, and Vanagon Engine Conversion specialist.
> Do good work, and stay SAFE - that's first, safety. And do solid good
work.
> www.turbovans.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
> John Goubeaux
> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 12:23 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Pwr Steering Rack Maint.
>
> As I see a few others are dealing with aging/leaking power steering
> racks I thought I would jump in and offer some info and ask a few
> questions of those who have been down this pathe.
>
> Mine has not "blown out" yet but has a real slow ( a few drops over
> time) leak at one of the boots where the tie rod exits the rack. Both
> boots are cracked and split though and I have replacements for them as
> well as a new reservoir filter.
>
> Can anyone offer tips on if a complete fluid change - will it help
> prolong the life of the internal seals at this point, or maybe it will
> speed up the inevitable? Is flushing and replacing the fluid pretty
> straight forward? I suppose Benteley has this in detail.
>
> In order to replace the boots that fit over the tie rods the tie rod end
> needs to be unbolted right? I replaced tie rod ends on an old 1963 Volks
> Van I had way back but don't remember if i needed to press the end out
> of where it connects to the steering arm. My question then is: does
> this require a special tool and or how difficult is it to get the tie
> rod end free?
>
> Any advice is much appreciated.
>
> -john
>
>
>
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