Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 16:18:54 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Pwr Steering Rack Maint. - about alignment shops
In-Reply-To: <48261C20.7080204@ucsb.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Alignment shops are not interested in helping you, or even spending your
money the most efficient way.
What they are interested in is Justifiable Profitable repairs.
If they can find 15 % play in a ball joint say, they are likely to say you
need that one and the same one on the other side, and a full alignment.
This is MOST alignment shops.
All they are really looking for is JUSTIFYABLE PROFITABLE repair jobs.
I've read trade magazine articles that say you should measure the static
ride height of every car that comes in your shop, and if you find a half
inch sag..........'well, sorry ma'am, but you need new front springs, plus
some other things, and an alignment, and it'll be $ 1,500 , but the good
news is we can have it done today.'
They always act like there is no other choice, and the car can't be driven
as it is, - or usually they do.
If the car really IS shot to hell, and you decline repairs, they will ask
you to sign to that affect before they release the car to you, which is only
right of course.
But an alignment shop - One Guy can bring in up to $ 3,000 a day doing that
kind of work.
Sears Auto Center in San Rafael, Ca, got busted to the max for overselling
front suspension repairs. They were on a commission basis too, so each ball
joint is money in the salesman's pocket. They probably oversold most jobs by
at least 50 %.
And the customer is usually at home, and they suspect something wasn't
'quite perfect' due to a steering wheel shimmy or slight pull to one side
say, but if they shop says 'you need these 8 parts replaced'
..........unless they go down there and insist on being shown how the parts
are worn, they are defenseless to over-sold front end jobs.
There is also the 'up sell'
That's where the shop gets the customer to commit to say, a 600 dollar hose,
radiator and thermostat job.
All is fine. The customer gets the impression that whole system will be fine
for quite a while, and they authorize the repair. Go for it.
And the shop gives the clear impression that's the whole story.
Then the shop calls back after while and says........well, now that we got
in there, your water pump isn't that good, and it really should have a new
timing belt and some oil seals.
The customer says, oh really ? how much will that cost ?
No problem sir, it's only another 750 dollars, but we can have it done today
too, or tomorrow worst case.
Its' a scam man.
I work my tail off, even it that means 4 hours inspection time, for free, so
that when I say 'you do XYZ for this many dollars and you'll be in good
shape'..................99 % of the time that is true.
I even warn customers when there is the chance of getting into it and
discovering more. I warn them that the job changes sometimes while you are
doing it.
I warn them that sometimes, AFTER you finish an indicated repair job and
that's all perfect, some whole other Hairy Demon repair need surfaces.
If they don't get my commitment to true service, value, honesty and
integrity, they don't get to have me work their car.
I never have problem in that department now anyway. In California, in the
80's and 90's ........it was a real struggle sometimes. People do not trust
shops there, and shops do not always do good work there at all. And see 'up
sell' above !
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: John Goubeaux [mailto:john@ucsb.edu]
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 3:05 PM
To: Scott Daniel - Shazam
Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Pwr Steering Rack Maint.
Scott, Thanks for the detailed instructions!
So, I can undo the tie rod end in the manner you describe on both sides
? And two wooden yardsticks are the best measuring tool ? Overlap them
to get the measurement ? I'm inclined to bring it to an alignment shop
prior to boot replacement, get the measurement, then bring it back
afterward and check it, along with any other checks they can perform.
I do though understand your words of caution about trusting just anybody
these days as there are lots of "bogus professionals" out there as you
wisely point out.
-john
Scott Daniel - Shazam wrote:
> I would not expect Bently to have it detail at all.
>
> What you do is, identify the low pressure return hose at the Resevoir.
> The high pressure one going to the pipes has a metal fitting with hex nut.
> The low pressure one has a hose clamp.
> That's the line you want to open.
>
> Warning, don't try to undo it from the bottom of the reservoir. Those are
so
> stuck and heatened on there, you almost can't get them off, and you'll not
> get it back on either.
> Undo that at the pipe.
> Plug the hose you just took off.
> Put a long hose on the pipe and run that to a bucket or drain pan.
> Run the engine at idle and keep adding fluid to the reservoir it uses it
up.
> Run maybe 4 qts, at least of ATF through.
> Flush it for 5 minutes at least this way.
> Usually you can't tell a lot about the fluid, except maybe it will turn
from
> 'pretty dark' to not as dark, as fresh gets in and old goes out.
> Flush 5 qts though, I'll suggest that.
> Clean the screen of course.
> Clean out the bottom of the res.
> DO ad a high quality 'power steering conditioner' to the fluid when you
are
> done getting new fluid into it.
>
> Here's a cheater way to deal with the tie rods to replace a tie rod boot.
> 'normally' on would undo the outer tie rod end from the steering knuckle,
> then take that off the tie rod.
> No need to do that.
> Undo the 22mm lock nut at the outer tie rod end.
> CAREFULLY unscreew the tie rod from the outer pivot thing, counting how
many
> turns it takes to come apart.
>
> BUT FIRST ...........YOU COULD btw, measure toe-in before you take this
> apart.
> You do that with two yardsticks, with the van on a flat surface, and the
> suspension settled. You can't jack it up, then lower it, and then measure
> toe.
> You want it fully settled, I even stop it with the parking brake so as to
> not disturb the front suspension to do this measurement.
> Measure from mid point up from tire to tire, in front, then in back.
> As I said, two yard sticks.
> Measure it several times.
> What you should find is that it's up to an eighth inch or so toed-in, that
> is the forward measurement is that much less than the aft one.
> You might get zero toe, that's fine.
> You just want to know what it's been running at.
> Any worn ball joints or tie rod ends - forget it, you need to fix those
> first.
> So get the toe,
> Then undo the ball pivot end from the tie rod by unscrewing the tie rod
and
> counting the turns. Mark with paint first too, of course.
> The tie rod has to turn in the outer end of the boot.
>
> When you have that outer pivot thing off, take off the 22mm lock nut,
> Then you can remove the boot and put on a new one.
> I've had a hell of a time getting the new boot on the rack too, around
that
> lip.
> I've struggled an hour many times, on just one boot there.
> I've also gotten the wrong steering rack boot many times.
>
> I like to lube the rack gear a bit, but on PS I don't.
> Check for up-down play at the end of the rack - the linerar rack gear
should
> have zero up-down play.
> I've seen a solid 1/8th inch up-down play there from having a person who
> jerks the ( non-PS ) steering drive the car for year, or from running out
> of round or out of balance ties, or worn shocks.
>
> ( here's one for you, speaking of out of balance, I saw a Dodge 200
> Tradesman Van - those big old V-8 ones.......the RF tire was so violently
> out of balance at 60 mph, there was two inches of light showing under the
> tire every wheel revolution !!!! I looked at the two occupants - they
were
> oblivious. Had no idea - they just though 'a little vibration' was
'normal'
> These vehicles can kill other people on the road too of course, not just
the
> people driving them. )
>
>
> so just leave that outer pivot in the steering knuckle, measure toe first,
> count turns unscrewing the tie rod, replace the boot, put it back together
> counting turns to get it as close as you can to where it was.
> Check the toe to see that it's about where it was.
> You need to move the van at least 5 van lengths, driving it ideally, to
> re-settle the front suspension before re-checking toe.
> You can tweak the toe adjustment with it fully on the ground too.
> Best results are if you move it a few van lengths after each adjustment
> before re-measuring.
>
> ( I also have ways to check camber and castor with these back yard
methods.
> Those get awfully tricky as changing camber, changes toe and castor, etc.
> Just stick with toe adjustments. )
>
> Manual checking of toe is a valid measurement, and while medium crude, is
> quite effective.
> Regarding steering wheel centering.............. besides indexing the
> splines where the steering wheel mounts its shaft, there is even a way to
> figure out which side to lengthen or shorten to bring the steering wheel
do
> dead center going straight ahead.
> I'll share on that sometime if anyone is up to it.
>
> There are professional alignment shops that don't know how to center
> steering wheels, honest !
> Which is a joke, because that is fundamental to an alignment.
> I have also seen a woman come directly from an alignment shop where she
had
> 'an alignment' and there was a totally shot tie rod end pivot, with an
> eighth inch of play in it. Just no way to align that car. She got totally
> ripped off.
> Seriously, there is a huge amount of bogus professional care repair. It's
> scary. I've seen THOUSANDS of incidences of bogus and incompetent
> professional car repair.
>
> Scott
> With upwards of 30 + years of full time professional car repair.
> Vanagon, and Vanagon Engine Conversion specialist.
> Do good work, and stay SAFE - that's first, safety. And do solid good
work.
> www.turbovans.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
> John Goubeaux
> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 12:23 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Pwr Steering Rack Maint.
>
> As I see a few others are dealing with aging/leaking power steering
> racks I thought I would jump in and offer some info and ask a few
> questions of those who have been down this pathe.
>
> Mine has not "blown out" yet but has a real slow ( a few drops over
> time) leak at one of the boots where the tie rod exits the rack. Both
> boots are cracked and split though and I have replacements for them as
> well as a new reservoir filter.
>
> Can anyone offer tips on if a complete fluid change - will it help
> prolong the life of the internal seals at this point, or maybe it will
> speed up the inevitable? Is flushing and replacing the fluid pretty
> straight forward? I suppose Benteley has this in detail.
>
> In order to replace the boots that fit over the tie rods the tie rod end
> needs to be unbolted right? I replaced tie rod ends on an old 1963 Volks
> Van I had way back but don't remember if i needed to press the end out
> of where it connects to the steering arm. My question then is: does
> this require a special tool and or how difficult is it to get the tie
> rod end free?
>
> Any advice is much appreciated.
>
> -john
>
>
>
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