Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:09:05 -0500
Reply-To: Larry Alofs <lalofs@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Larry Alofs <lalofs@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting problem
In-Reply-To: <5a099d980806211319p2ccb48fr9b7241e1f9d014b@mail.gmail.com>
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Neil,
I'm not sure I understand the symptoms; maybe you covered them in an
earlier post.
I assume that when you turn the key to the start position, the starter does
not engage and rotate the engine. I'm a little confused by your statement
that "sometimes" a click can be heard, but I will ignore that for now.
If my assumptions above are correct, then you should try some of the
temporary remedies many of us have used in the past:
Have someone hold the key in the start position while you either crawl
under and whack the solenoid with a hammer, or use a broomstick inserted
above the right rear wheel.
If this type of thing causes the solenoid to activate, you have the common
problem that I have faced in two vanagons and one bay. Causes may include,
corroded connections anywhere in the circuit driving the solenoid,
resistance at the contacts in the ignition switch, dirt/corrosion causing
sticking of the solenoid, and marginal wiring design with too much
resistance to start with.
Some people find that cleaning, lubricating, or replacing the solenoid
solves the problem. I have not been successful with that approach. I have
used the relay approach successfully three times. Although eventually in
one case I finally had to have the starter rebuilt. If the
commutator/brushes contact is bad enough the relay doesn't help; the ground
path for the solenoid is thru the starter.
Some the the list vendors sell a "hard start" relay kit. If you buy your
own it should be able to handle about 40 amps. Basically it should be wired
so that the circuit from the ignition switch activates the relay which makes
a connection between the large +12 post on the solenoid and the push-on
terminal that the ignition circuit was connected to. I have always mounted
the relays under the rear seat out of the weather and snuck the wires out
thru the openings where the rear heater hoses go [unless it was an
air-cooled van :-) ]
Dennis Haynes has expressed concern that because a large inductive load is
being switched, the contacts of a relay may become welded together. This
would be rather awkward as the starter would be activated until someone
disconnected the battery. I believe he recommended a particular type of
relay to avoid this possibility. Use a relay at your own risk; many have
done so with no problem.
There is one other weak point in the system that I should mention, if only
for PM. The very short strap that feeds the current from the bottom
terminal of the solenoid into the starter itself, is made of very fine
strands of copper and is very vulnerable to corrosion in a salty
environment. About two years ago, on my '91 that cable had completely
turned to powder. This required a rebuild that was a little more expensive
than usual, because they had to replace the field coils. Everyone should
smear that cable with thick grease about once a year to protect it.
Hope this helps,
Larry A.
On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Neil2 <vidublu@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey volks,
>
> OK, I've done me due dili, sort of. Read archives for hours and have
> deduced the reason/s my 82 Vanagon Westy with the 'relay' not inside the
> driver's seat pedastal, won't start.
>
> What I need ya'll's help with is narrowing it down to one or two if
> possible. Here's the list:
>
> Ignition switch
> load reduction relay ('low voltage relay'?)
> wire betwixt the starter and solenoid
> solenoid
> starter
> starter (lower) bushing in the xmission
> battery
> loose connection/s in the circuits
>
> I've decided to troubleshoot this from my traditional approach this time:
> Least $$, least trouble, most likely, et cetera. Of course the big pic is
> to enrich me relationship with Duckie through trial and pain. Ain't that
> what VW's are all about? This means I won't, if possible, try the 'next
> thing' until I've proven the previous were partially/completely
> unsuccessful.
>
> The peculiars: 1) Mine has a 'dangling wire' (FM slide on blade
> connections, both ends) on the solenoid, connection 50 (same connection
> with
> a lead to the ignition/starter switch). Another owner mentioned his did
> too. Unsure if this indicates a PO's installation/removal a load reduction
> relay or if a PO used it to shock the solenoid into submussion. I
> inadvertently did so while troubleshooting last week. Anywho, the red lead
> to the ignition/starter switch goes/also goes to a harness and then back
> out
> to a terminal block post (along with another wire of the same color/size.
> This terminal block is on the rear wall of the engine compt. path continues
> to to a 'buss bar' to the second terminal and the same size/color wire
> leads
> to the bottom of a relay (?), perhaps the load reduction relay?
>
> 2) Mine has failed to start after shutting the engine off after a long
> drive
> (common archive occurrence) BUT also after sitting all night in my driveway
> last week. IOW, my symptoms include a cold and hot engine and ambient
> temps
> btwn 50ish to 70ish.
>
> 3) Just heard the entertainers on CarTalk mention a common problem in warm
> temps (or warm engines?) of the bushing being too warm to operate properly.
>
> 4) At least sometimes a click can be heard (from the solenoid?) when trying
> to start it.
>
> 5) Sometimes if I hold the ignition switch in the ON position a second
> longer, it starts.
>
> OK, line up and tell me your thoughts!
> --
> Neil2
> '82 Diesel Westy (Duckie)
>
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