Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:41:36 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Now My Jetta conversion won't start --- :^( --- (longish)
In-Reply-To: <c4e7c5f90806180841r6a2692aj64cb1bae9874d8ee@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I would be willing to bet a significant sum of $ that oxygen sensor has
NOTHING to do with the engine's ability to start.
There isn't even an output from the 02 until it's been running a few
minutes.
02 heat is 'nothing' basically...........i.e. 'not needed at all' unless
the ECU is so anal that it wouldn't be happy without the 02 heat cirucit
working.
I think you are barking up the wrong tree completely by thinking much
about your 02 and heat circuit for it righ now -
AND - it IS good to check your work, for sure !
and..........you might just stumble onto something else not right during
that process, so do invest some energy in that direction.
you are clear, right ? - that oxygen sensor has nothing to do with the
engine starting up .
I'm wondering if people understand that the 02 heat circuit is just an
'embellishment ' to an oxygen sensor system ?
it's not really needed - except in the rare case that the 02 sensor gets
too cool to put out a good signal.
After all, 83 to 85 Vanagon 1.9 waterboxers engines have run gajillionis
of miles total, and not one of them has a heated oxygen sensor .
ECT - engine coolant temp sensor ?
for sure - very worth checking and a VERY important input to the ECU.
on some systems that's a 'must have' input. Some engines will not start
without that input.
It doesn't have to be really all that right for it to start, but it has
to be pretty right for it to run right.
what I suggest is -
A. ohm check the coolant senor to see if it's in spec .
B. ........continuity check all the way from the wire connector where it
plugs onto the sensor ........all the way to the ECU pins . Both wires.
grounds ?
got all your grounds 'for sure' !?
have you checked that gasoline is actually being injected by the injectors ?
did you just pour a few spoonfulls of gas down the intake and see if it
goes 'VROOM' when you crank it on the starter.
did you inpect the spark plugs to make sure they are not wet-fouled ?
I can't say enough how easy it is to get the plugs wet with gas, and
then they won't fire until you pull them out and dry them ....
however, that ABA engine will have REALLY strong spark and this is not
all 'that' likely to happne, but you have to check for it.
on Coils - in my world they don't fail black and white. They get old
and weak. They're nebulous.
and besides - you did check for spark , right ? so it should at least be
working 'enough.
I have put a new coil on a personal car of mine just because I had one -
and I thought my car had been running fine, yet with that new coil it
ran 10 % better.
If a coil is 20 years old - it's generally suspect anyway. But I can't
even think of a time I ever saw a coil that was totally dead.
you can ohm check them of course.
scott
turbovans
neil N wrote:
> Hey Charlie. Thanks --- :^)
>
> Nope. Coil isn't new. That would be the last thing to do (replace) but
> thanks for the pointer. :^)
>
> I'll be checking the wiring to the HO2S relay and will see if any
> volts getting to the HO2S unit itself first. There are varying
> opinions, on whether or not the O2 sensor would cause such a major
> malfunction. The next thing to check is the ECT sensor. Speaking of
> which....
>
> I tried to get a signal off the wire from the ECT, to use with the
> stock Jetta gauge. Nothing registered. It may be that it provides a
> ground. (not likely though) But if so, I had wired it assuming it
> would provide the + side, so it's possible I had 2 grounds to the
> gauge.
>
> Have you tried connecting one of the wires from the ECT to your gauge?
> I **don't** know if the voltage output would be compatible, but
> Bentley says that this sensor provides info to the Jetta coolant
> guage.
>
> I'll keep plugging away. (pun intended!)
>
> Keep me posted on your great results. Hearing that kind of thing keeps
> my goal in mind! --- :^)
>
> Neil.
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:46 PM, Ikard <fikard@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Geez Neil,
>>
>> I am sorry you're having this problem......now. After all the good pointers
>> you gave me. My engine seems to be great. Especially after I changed the
>> belt configuration. I was getting power steering fluid leaks and had a noisy
>> pump. Been working on small water leaks and scratching my head on how to get
>> water temp gauge to work. I got it licensed today and plan on running around
>> the block if I can get water temp readings.
>>
>> Is your coil new? It does sound like you are either running rich or not
>> getting complete combustion. I too changed plugs, cap, rotor, coil, relays,
>> b4 starting the first time....since I had no donor vehicle. It seems that
>> disconnecting the HO2 sensor to no effect is indicative of a problem with
>> the sensor or the relay? Oh well, you guys probably know a lot more than I
>> do about such things.
>>
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com]On Behalf
>> Of neil N
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:27 PM
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Subject: Re: Now My Jetta conversion won't start --- :^( --- (longish)
>>
>>
>> Hi Scott.
>>
>> No I didn't check for spark. It started fine that day. I didn't change
>> anything to affect spark, so looked elsewhere.
>>
>> In my email I mention the new parts being put in before problem. (old
>> parts worn) With the exception of the fuel filter, I didn't "throw"
>> stuff at the Vanagon, though I tossed in a fuel filter as looking in
>> the old one, I saw black. Turns out that's normal for this type of
>> filter. I didn't know that.
>>
>> I mentioned too that the fuel was flowing well and that timing is
>> correct. Anyhow.....
>>
>> I just started it again after trying to hook up the MIL (previously
>> called it "MAL" by mistake!) It fired right up cold. Exhaust was
>> white-ish (which went away), and smelled rich. Same old
>> missing/bogging at 1/4 throttle with uneven idle (hunting)
>>
>> Disconnecting the HO2 sensor made no difference to missing at 1/4
>> throttle (no tach hooked up).
>>
>> I'll read your email more closely later. Gotta get ready for work!
>>
>> Thanks for the pointers and explaining more about the ECU. I thought
>> maybe the engine was in "limp" mode or some such.
>>
>> It may be that it's the way I wired the HO2 sensor relay. Both the HO2
>> sensor and relay are new. (didn't grab them from the donor when i had
>> the chance!)
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Neil.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Scott Daniel - Shazam
>> <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Neil,
>>> did i miss it ? or do I not see where you actaully CHECKED that their is
>>> spark
>>> or that there is fuel pressure .
>>>
>>> I have to say this about 400 times -
>>> replacing tune up parts is NOT how to proceed for a no start.
>>> it's how you INTRODUCE more problems !!
>>>
>>> Sure, some parts you'll 'just try another one' - say air mass meter.
>>> Remeber reading about a guy on here about 4 months ago - a week's worth of
>>> 50 postings and replies, and in the end, he hadn't bolted his distrubutor
>>> timing clamp down properly !
>>>
>>> so *inspect, diagnose, check'....................and 'bypass and
>>>
>> subsitute'
>>
>>> * !!
>>>
>>> for example, just pour some fresh gas down the throat - if it gee VROOOM !
>>> you know about 5 things are working right and that one isn't, and you know
>>> EXACTLY what to work on !
>>>
>>>
>>> I would never ever dream of touching the timing belt on a junkyard running
>>> engine until AFTER it was running properly in the new home - i.e. your van
>>>
>> !
>>
>>> I've read of about 100 cases of Subaruvanagon people getting their T-belts
>>> off in a pre-installation t-belt job.
>>> it happens.
>>>
>>> and ............the VERY FIRST RULE ???....................
>>> CHECK THE BASICS , CHECK THE BASICS.
>>>
>>> I would love to read you saying ...........
>>> there is fat spark to each spark plug.
>>> Ignitioin timing is in the ball park at least.
>>> Timing marks on t-belt line up perfectly.
>>> There is good compression.
>>> Fuel is fresh, and fuel pressure is good.
>>>
>>>
>>> if you can get codes via the CEL ( mal ) ...........definitely do that.
>>> but DO NOT just run out and buy the part if it flags a component or device
>>> !!
>>>
>>> generally speaking, having codes stored in the ECU should not in itself,
>>> cause a no-start.
>>> The only exception I can imagine is if it had say something off that could
>>> cause severe damgage if the engine did start - I don't know if it is, but
>>> say if it was an interference engine, and the ECU sees the t-belt off by a
>>> mile say ( though there isn't any cam position sensor unless it's a
>>> distrubutor mounted on the end of the camshaft ) .........so the ECU might
>>> not even know that.
>>>
>>> AND........seriously.........honest, german engineers only design things
>>>
>> to
>>
>>> 'be right.' So i seriously doubt in a million years that they'd think
>>>
>> ahead
>>
>>> enough to prevent the engine from being able to start if it was going to
>>> hurt itself.
>>>
>>> here's a perfect example of that very german mindset - about designing
>>> things for only when they are right , or in the case , newish.
>>> A waterboxer engine has a combination studs with nuts and bolts , holding
>>> the exhaust pipes to the heads.
>>> 8 fasteners in all.
>>> Years later, after hundreds of heat/cool cycles, and god knows what all
>>>
>> rust
>>
>>> and road salt - the nuts or easy to get off the studs - just heat them red
>>> hod with a torch etc............
>>> BUT.............the 'other four'.............the bolts that screw nearly 2
>>> inches deep into the heads......
>>> those are just hell to get out of the heads sometimes without breaking
>>>
>> them
>>
>>> off in the head.
>>> if you are lucky - the bolt head will break off, and after the exahust
>>>
>> pipes
>>
>>> are out of the way, at least you have something you can still grab with a
>>> vice grips or whatever.
>>>
>>> granted,. it's more work to replace a exh. port gasket, or sneak a head
>>>
>> out
>>
>>> between the exhaut pipes with studs instead of bolts into the
>>> heads..........but it's not fun at all doing 'dental work' - drilling and
>>> taping deep into a head to repair a broken off bolt.
>>>
>>> Like a race car - it could/should be made EASY to work on. If I even get
>>>
>> to
>>
>>> be King, all car engineers will be required to work on cars full time for
>>>
>> 10
>>
>>> years in the field, in the trenches of car shops around the world, before
>>> they are allowed to design anything.,
>>>
>>> the get so caught up in the 'modulus of elasticity' of a material, or
>>> whatever, and completely miss it when it comes to just using or working on
>>> what they designed.
>>>
>>> if I had but 2 cents for all the dumb things I've seen designed on cars -
>>> I'd be richer than B. Gates. ( i mean, WHY would you hide a trans filler
>>> plug behind the shift linkage ?????? ! - just to piss of the techs
>>> working on it ? )
>>>
>>> And you can bet that all my conversion work is - super easy to work on,
>>>
>> all
>>
>>> standard fastners, etc. The exhaust systems I build on TD vanagons, and
>>>
>> on
>>
>>> Subaru conversions - they come right off in about 15 minutes with about 15
>>> bolts. and they don't crack or break or anything like that either.
>>>
>>> I never forget it the second I heard a friend make a comment about racing
>>> motorcycles will used to built, withracing custom frames even - he said he
>>> was going to built one with all nuts & bolts for fasteners. Not as
>>>
>> elegant,
>>
>>> or light weight - but by golly, SO easy to deal with or replace !
>>> scott
>>> www.turbovans.com
>>>
>>>
>>> il N wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all.
>>>
>>> This is regarding an OBD1 ABA Motronic 2.9 stock 2.0 Jetta engine I
>>> installed in my Westy.
>>>
>>> The ECU and wiring harness are from an automatic Jetta. Auto tranny
>>> TCM (trans. control module) NOT present. TB is from a *manual* tranny
>>> engine.
>>>
>>> I have a TB from an automatic Jetta. (2 throttle position sensors) and
>>> can swap it in.
>>>
>>> I have yet to hook up the OBD interface, but here's what's happening.
>>>
>>> It used to start, idle, but bog with throttle opened slowly to 1/3
>>> way. After a 30 sec. - few minute run, I would shut if off and try to
>>> restart. It would spin, "catch" a little, and sometimes start. Next
>>> day, it would start. Yesterday same thing, but eventually no firing,
>>> (catching) and no start.
>>>
>>> I replaced rotor, cap, plugs, timing belt (timing ok) well before
>>> yesterday. Got fresh gas half way through yesterdays trials, and
>>> replaced the fuel filter.
>>>
>>> Cleaned the TB, MAF, IAC, (and tried another IAC), double checked
>>> electrical connections. Can't find any vacuum leaks. Fuel is pumping.
>>> FP hotwired made no difference. Power gets to power supply relay, and
>>> to 12V side of the coil.
>>>
>>> I have not checked for spark yet, but checked one of the plugs. It was
>>> pretty black. The exhaust (to an uneducated nose) might be smelling
>>> rich. I can't test for power to the HOS2 sensor as engine needs to be
>>> running.
>>>
>>> I'll connect the OBD but will be relying on light flashes from the
>>> "Mal" light (aka the CEL). I don't have a VAG-COM unit.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions as to why it won't start?
>>>
>>> Does the ECU need to be cleared of error codes? i.e. would error codes
>>> cause a no start?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks much for any direction.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Neil Nicholson '81 JettaWesty "Jaco
>>>
>>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engine
>> s
>>
>>> http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
>>> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Neil Nicholson '81 JettaWesty "Jaco
>> http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engine
>> s
>> http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
>> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Neil Nicholson '81 JettaWesty "Jaco
> http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engines
> http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>
>
>
| 
