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Date:         Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:25:13 -0700
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      Re: CA Smog Failed - 1985 1.9L
Comments: To: David Kao <dtkao0205@YAHOO.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <792370.49134.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hi David, I think you'll find your 2001 Passat also has two oxygen sensors. they won't cost as much as two cats of course.............but when those are needed......... they could be a bit expensive. On OBD-II cars there's an oxygen sensor downstream from the cat/s of course...........so the ECU can tell if they cat is working or not. and yes.........Vanagons are "OBD-nothing."

The concept of On Board Diangostics had onhly just been thougt of when they made the last vanagon. 'OBD-O' as it were. ( I could also say - thank goodness ! too. OBD-I and - II .........there are some advantages sure............but it's not like those systems are this magic 'identify anything correctly and instantly ' in real practice. Somehow, like all things computer related - they give more capabilty - say 3 times the capabiityh, but they take 5 to 8 times as much time and messing around with them for things to make sense ! I like OBD-I basically........... you can pull codes by counting the flashing Check Engine Light in the right mode - it'll give you something to go on ....... an area to investigate etc. Perfect simple example - an SVX subaru engine conversion of mine wasn't starting right up like it should . Normally, btw, subaru engine in Vanagons start explosively - like faster than instantly .......but this was cranking a bit. And it had changed suddenly, so likely a specific thing was off. Getting a code out of it it said 'ignition switch' ..............I happened to know that the ECU needs to see the start signal from the ingnition switch for assiting in firing up the beast...........and sure enough, I went right to that wire, and found the weak connection right off the bat. Wow that's nice ! but a lot of the time - techs are dealing with the OBD and what it means, or making sense of it............and don't get right to the faulty thing on the engine ..........plus.........tech think just because OBD-II says 'throttle position switch' ........it must be a fualty TPS,. Not so ! it menas there is a problem in that circuit. On 82 diesel Westy with 98 Imprezza engine in it that I bought - had an invoice in it for 700 dollars and a new TPS. It started with difficulty, and was stumbly to accelrate. Took me about an hour to find a pulled apart wire spice near the ECU on one of the 3 TPS wires. Some poor soul paid 700 clams, likely for labor and a TPS the van didn't need ! So ...............OBD, especially OBD-II has made techs DUMBER............or more careless than before even. you didn't say the miles on your Passat, but i'm wondering if age of cats or oxygen sensors is a factor in your relaively high smog readings. scott www.turbovans

David Kao wrote: > If I am not mistaken Vanagons do not even have OBD1. There are no OBD > on Vanagons. I am not too sure about the latest Vanagons. But there has > not been any discussions about problems or issues of OBD on any Vanagons. > > My 2001 Passat has OBD2. It received its very first SMOG check earlier > this year. It did pass the test without any issues but the numbers were > not any particularly cleaner than the numbers from my 83.5 and 84 > Vanagons. I somehow anticipated excellent numbers because of my faith > on German engineering. I was not really impressed. On the other hand > the smog check results from my 83.5 and 84 Vanagons are not bad considering > WBX engines are often regarded as carppy by some list members. > > With an OBD2 when something goes wrong and fails the SMOG test it is likely > big bucks to fix. My Passat V6 has two CATs. It would be a bill over $3k if > they need replacement when the OBD2 says so. > > David > > > --- Joseph Fortino <fortino1@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote: > > >> Wow Dennis, >> >> Thanks for complete data on this. very impressive info! yes most shops don't have >> an idea about our vans and really end up messing with stuff that should never have been >> touched. >> >> Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM> >>> Sent: Jun 30, 2008 5:49 AM >>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >>> Subject: Re: CA Smog Failed - 1985 1.9L >>> >>> Thanks to OBDII, many states may put off emissions testing machines until >>> most cars can use the OBD as the emissions test. We are doing that in New >>> York. Plug the state computer into the car, it checks the "readiness" status >>> and if no faults, test is over. If the computer had faults reset or the >>> battery was recenlty disconected the "Ready" indicators will be off until >>> each parameter tested had enough run time or cycles to ensure proper >>> operation. This results in a test failure. >>> >>> While the testing part has its issues it is somewhat effective at getting >>> gross polluters fixed. The Vanagon frequently has trouble passing due to the >>> minimalist amount of emissions equipment and an air induction-fuel delivery >>> system that is not well balanced. >>> >>> All after market catalytic converters do not work as well or as long as the >>> OEM. The have less material, smaller diameter menas higher flow speed, less >>> contact time. Shorter material has less contact time. Most after marker >>> units suffer from both. The Emicco is proabaly the best out there but the >>> inner core is still only 1/2 the lenght. >>> >>> If the vehicle has an O2 sensor, (most 81+) the original Cat is known as a >>> 3-way. It reduces CO, HC, and NOx). Many after market units will not address >>> the NOx. >>> >>> The only way to test NOx reduction is to create it which reqiures testing >>> under load. That is why there are the Dyno tests. The Vanagon only has mild >>> ignition timing, valve timing, and reduced compression and the Cat as NOx >>> control. Most other cars use Exhaust Gas Recircultation, (EGR). >>> It is alo why the engine is geared to spin so fast. High speed inder ligher >>> load helps keep the NOx down. >>> >>> CO is usually a mixture issue. It should be ~1% or lower before the Cat. The >>> O2 sensor tries to average it around .5%. Too lean will prevent the Cat from >>> reducing the NOx. Over advanced igniton timing can cuase high CO at idle >>> speeds. CO is the result of fuel that has strted to burn but could not >>> finish due to lack of O2. Many cars use air injection into the exhaust to >>> ensure what doesn't burn in the engine gets another chance in the exhaust. >>> >>> HC is fuel that never burned to begin with. It is usually the result if >>> igniton or mixture (lean) miss fires, leaking valves-rings, oil dilution. >>> etc. Should be under 100-150 before the Cat. >>> >>> NOx is the result of high combustion temparatures or pressures. Over >>> advanced timing, carbon build up are the culprits here. Lean mixtures will >>> also raise NOx. That is why the O2 sensor is needed to maintain tight >>> mixture control. If all the settings are good and NOx is aproblem, than a >>> replacement Cat is the answer. >>> >>> What bothers me is the lack of competance shops and testers show when >>> dealing with emissions issues. >>> >>> Except for a minor idle mixture trim, the air flow meter should never need >>> adjusting. If you can adjust it to make a difference than you either put >>> things so out of range the O2 sensor circuit can't adjust any more or the O2 >>> sensor is not working. >>> >>> Dennis >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: Joseph Fortino <fortino1@EARTHLINK.NET> >>>> Reply-To: Joseph Fortino <fortino1@EARTHLINK.NET> >>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >>>> Subject: Re: CA Smog Failed - 1985 1.9L >>>> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:27:38 -0400 >>>> >>>> Just waiting for this money pit to hit my part of Oregon, money pit= smog >>>> issues. how i feel >>>> CA wants these off the road. the machines are lame! >>>> >>>> just my 2cents :) >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>>>> From: David Kao <dtkao0205@YAHOO.COM> >>>>> Sent: Jun 28, 2008 2:14 PM >>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >>>>> Subject: Re: CA Smog Failed - 1985 1.9L >>>>> >>>>> Without CAT CO will be alway above 0.2% or 2.0% something like that. >>>>> CAT is the device that reduces CO from there down to zero. That's what >>>>> CAT is supposed to do and nothing else. That is what my Smog test >>>>> operator said. If you have other problems it has nothing to do with >>>>> the CAT. >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- "Jack R." <jack007@COMCAST.NET> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I failed these things over and over again with my 84 Westy 1.9l back >>>>>> >>>> when >>>> >>>>>> Michigan had these tests. I ended up adjusting the AFM to fix my >>>>>> >>>> issue, and >>>> >>>>>> get it to pass. Also, tried it on a very warm day, cold day etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Good luck! >>>>>> >>>>>> Glad we don't have these tests in Michigan any longer! >>>>>> >>>>>> Jack R. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf >>>>>> >>>> Of >>>> >>>>>> Walter Houle >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 10:45 AM >>>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >>>>>> Subject: Re: CA Smog Failed - 1985 1.9L >>>>>> >>>>>> OK I failed test #3 with high NOx agai. We can rule out timing as the >>>>>> problem. I will now check the injectors, the O2 sensor, the fuel pump >>>>>> pressure, and the AFM per our friend Bentley. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, my mechanic swears that the problem is the catalytic >>>>>> >>>> converter. >>>> >>>>>> Since its brand new, I'm not sure I believe him. I got the same one I >>>>>> >>>> used >>>> >>>>>> 4 yers ago, and that got me thru 2 smog tests sucessfully. Are there >>>>>> better performing cats out there that will work on CA vanagons? Any >>>>>> suggestions? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Walter >>>>>> 85 Vanagon 1.9L >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 19:19:08 -0400, Walter Houle >>>>>> >>>> <whoule@ECSCONTROLS.COM> >>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> My van failed the NO part of the CA Smog Test twice. >>>>>>> I had the van worked on in between so I'm wondering what is causing >>>>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>>>> high NO. The 15 MPH 2200 RPM readings were as follows: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Test 1: %CO2=14.5 %O2=0.6 HC PPM Max=131 Measured=131 CO% Max=0.87 >>>>>>> Measured = 0.37 NO PPM Max=1085 Measured = 1492 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I installed a new O2 sensor and a new catalytic converter. Also, a >>>>>>> >>>> good >>>> >>>>>>> local mechanic found that the vacuum retard port on the distributer >>>>>>> >>>> had >>>> >>>>>>> been disconnected and that the timing was set at 19 degrees too far >>>>>>> advanced. They reconnected a vacuum hose to the retard side of the >>>>>>> distributer and set the timing back to spec. However, it failer NO >>>>>>> >>>> again, >>>> >>>>>>> this time even worse. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Test 2: %CO2=14.9 %O2=0.4 HC PPM Max=131 Measured=40 CO% Max=0.87 >>>>>>> Measured = 0.04 NO PPM Max=1085 Measured = 2131 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The reduced HC & CO readings show me that the new cat and O2 sensor >>>>>>> >>>> are >>>> >>>>>>> doing their jobs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What is causing the higher NO reading? Did retarding the timing make >>>>>>> >>>> it >>>> >>>>>>> worse? Does anyone have any suggestions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Otherwise, my next move is to remove the vacuum retard hose again, >>>>>>> >>>> advance >>>> >>>>>>> the timing 19 degrees, and return for Test #3. Since I now have made >>>>>>> the "Gross Polluter" class, my Max NO limit got bumped to 2050. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Walter >>>>>>> 1985 Vanagon 1.9 >>>>>>> >>>> Have a nice Day :) >>>> >> Have a nice Day :) >> >> > > >


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