Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:33:19 -0700
Reply-To: David Kao <dtkao0205@YAHOO.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: David Kao <dtkao0205@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: I learned alot about my brakes today....
In-Reply-To: <c4e7c5f90807010823r3131569p558b11e3c06a63a6@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Neil, thanks for responding to my post. I hope Craig has got all the
tips he needs to solve his brake problem. Vanagons need brake work
more frequent than any other cars I ever owned. I am learning from
many on this list and I should contribute sometimes in return.
I think the brake system on our Vanagons is quite simple and we all
should be able to do it right. But I think even it is a very simple
brake system we don't always do it right.
Before I concluded that it was the after market brake pads that I used
to be the cause of the brake fade problem I did spent a lot of time
checking for other possible causes. It wasn't heat because the brake
faded right at the first pedal pressure in the morning. It wasn't
adjustment of brake shes, wasn't brake fluid bleeding, wasn't master
and slave cylinder issue either. When I put in OEM pads the fading
disappeared instantly. This happened on both my Westy and GL. So it
wasn't Vanagon weight issue either.
I bought my 84 new. I remember deep in my brain that the first time
I had to brake fast my daught fell off from her seat behind me. Then
samething happened at least 3 or 4 more times before the first 25k
miles passed. The original brake was fantastic. The brake has been
replaced many times since then but it has never been the same ever.
I probably need to replace the entire brake system with new OEM parts
and do a precision adjustment to bring back the effectiveness of the
original brake system.
At least once a VW dealer tried to sell me a set of after market pads
at much cheaper price. I refused it and they quickly changed it to a
set of OEM. The OEM pads simply work best for me. I do wonder if anyone
else experienced the same though.
Does anyone sell OEM pads anywhere? I really do not like to depend on
the dealers.
BTW, I really enjoyed your posts, especially reading your progress of your
engine conversion project. I wish I could put an inline-4 on my Westy too.
I don't think I am ready for that but I am learning day by day and watch
your messages. Thanks a lot for sharing. Good luck to your project.
David
--- neil N <musomuso@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi David.
>
> Good to know that dealership VW pads make a big difference. Thanks for
> that tip. Now that I have my Jetta 2.0 engine installed, I'll need
> better brakes! (kidding).
>
> But seriously, I may replace the front pads with pads from the dealer.
> I notice a *little* brake fade. (or rather the brakes overall, are
> just not as good as I think they could be)
>
> As for "fade", I agree about how the term is commonly used in regards
> to brakes. Brake fade is generally caused by too much heat. This is
> caused, in part, by overuse/misuse of brakes, and/or worn parts. Fade
> can be caused by foreign matter (oil, grease, brake fluid)
> contaminating the shoes/pads. (Actually, the brakes would be less
> effective right away with contamination) And parts that arer
> maladjusted or improperly installed, i.e. rubbing all the time, don't
> help either.
>
> The extra heat will likely cause (at the very least!) glazing on the
> pads/shoes and rotors/drums. This leaves a poor surface (smoother) so
> there is less friction.
>
> One other aspect. IMHO, the substandard brake system design on the
> Westfalia contributes to brake fade. This is likely limited to the
> older models (like mine. '81), but with the extra weight, one has to
> be mindful of leaving more stopping room and to not over use the
> brakes. But that's nothing new to people on this list!
>
> I think that by "fade", Craig meant that the pedal was sinking or
> going lower than it should, over a short period of time.
>
> I hope he sorts it out. Sounds like he's put a lot of work into his Vanagon!
>
> Neil.
>
> --
> Neil Nicholson '81 JettaWesty "Jaco
> http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engines
> http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 11:53 PM, David Kao <dtkao0205@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > My understanding of brake fading is reduced stopping ability of the brake.
> > It is not brake pedal sinking lower. If the pedal is too low for the stopping
> > to begin it is normally the drum bakes that need adjustment. If brake fades
> > my understanding is somehow the pads and shoes (rear) are not able to slow the
> > drums and discs fast enough.
> >
> > Somehow when I used after market pads (at least twice, possibly three) they
> > never worked. I suffered from brake fading for a long time until I listened
> > to wife and spent $70 for a set of OEM pads from a VW dealer. The brake fading
> > problem went away instantly. Not once, at least twice. Possibly three times.
> > After that I learned my lessons hard and used only OEM pads. People usually
> > need such lessons before they will believe it.
> >
> > I use after market brake shoes and they work fine. But OEM shoes lasted a
> > very long time. I will not waste any more time and money on after market
> > pads and shoes.
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > --- neil N <musomuso@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Craig.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 4:27 PM, craig cowan <phishman068@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > The mechanic who failed it tells me the pedal is too low and it needs to be
> >> > pumped a few times to get up. ..... Well yesterday i bled the
> >> > brakes and it seemed to give the pedal a bit more of a consistent feel, but
> >> > the pedal is still low and fades a bit.
> >>
> >> By "fades a bit", do you mean the pedal sinks a bit after you pump it
> >> up, sinks even if not pumped up, or that it returns (if brakes not
> >> used) to the lower pedal height some time after you have pumped pedal
> >> up?
> >>
> >> Regardless of pumping, if it sinks, that might mean master cylinder problem.
> >>
> >> If it returns to the "lower" height, then the need to pump up the
> >> brakes can also mean the shoes aren't adjusted right.
> >>
> >> I'm not certain if a really worn drum would make it impossible to
> >> adjust the shoes out far enough, but this could be the case. i.e. you
> >> adjust shoes as far as possible, but you still need to pump the brakes
> >> to push the shoes out far enough. Kinda guessing on that one though!
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Neil.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Neil Nicholson '81 JettaWesty "Jaco
> >> http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engines
> >> http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
> >> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
> >>
> >
>
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