Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:22:04 -0400
Reply-To: craig cowan <phishman068@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: craig cowan <phishman068@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Water 4 Gas. com Does it work? Has Anyone Tried it? Know of
It?
In-Reply-To: <20080713235624.UIAR22820.eastrmmtao103.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Well i'm in the process of designing and gathering parts for the
experiemental stages of what i hope to eventually be a "hybrid" HHO vanagon
but will work in 3 main steps:
1. Design and proof of concept
2. Prototype HHO powered lawn tractor
3. "production' vanagon system.
I've begun the gathering of the parts, and have the design well refined. I
have conducted some proof of concept experiments with great success, and
have learned alot about the system. I see the flaw that everyone else does
and realise that this closed system cannot possibly generate energy without
defying the laws of physics. (Generate meaning create new). Well the
argument that the people on the side of HHO give is that "plenty of people
have done this, and with great success". Personally, i can't see how. It
still defys physics in that in the very least, you'd have to recharge your
battery from time to time (But is that so bad?).
There is a solution though, one that i've never heard of touched on thus
far. It's simple really......make the closed system open.
My solution, a solar panel.
Now the concept works, almost entirely without significant problems. Our HHO
generator does not need to be 100% efficient, we can realize that engines
aren't even close to 100% efficient anyway, and combat our losses by ADDING
ENERGY, a renewable "free" source.....the sun. I fail to see drawbacks with
the HHO idea from anything but a design and safety standpoint with that
solution stated.
The O2 sensor is not much of a hinderence if you build the right
circuitry......
Heck in a very very advanced HHO system, it would be your biggest assett
(theoretically adjusting automatically on the fly the Fuel air ratio as it
should, along with the fuel/air to HHO ratio (trying to use as much HHO as
possible)).
And no, i'm not an engineer. Just someone with to much time and 'impractical
knowledge' for my own good.
-Craig
'85GL (Soon to read: '85GL-H)
On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 7:56 PM, David Beierl <dbeierl@attglobal.net> wrote:
> At 06:38 PM 7/13/2008, miguel pacheco wrote:
>
>> Uhm, read on, the O2 thing is no longer an issue..............
>> Possible or not, it looks like a fun project.
>>
>
> I've got one question, in two* parts.
>
> A: How much energy does it take to electrolyze the water to H and O?
> B: How much energy do you get back by burning the stuff? Is it as
> much as you spent to make it? Hint: No, it isn't.
> C: What's the efficiency of the gasoline --> mechanical -->
> electrical cycle that generates the current to electrolyze the
> water? Guessing 30% in the engine times 80% in the alternator... :-(
> D: Where does the energy come from to do this? Hint: The Gasoline.
>
> *Our THREE main weapons are surprise, fear, ruthless efficiency and
> fanatical devotion to the Pope!
>
> TANSTAAFL. The three laws of thermodynamics say you can't win, you
> can't break even, and you can't get out of the game. There's no
> question that you suffer a net loss of energy by hydrolyzing water
> and then burning the products, made worse by the various
> inefficiencies attendant on generating the electricity. So *IF* this
> method works at all, it has to be by somehow increasing the
> efficiency of the Otto engine cycle by a considerable amount, i.e.
> getting considerably more mechanical output from somewhat less
> thermal input. AFAIK the only remaining area for large improvements
> in recovery of mechanical effort from the thermal cycle involve
> raising the operating temperature of the engine which is currently
> constrained by materials (Smokey Yunick once hoped, maybe still does,
> to build a ceramic engine that would run continuously red-hot for
> just this reason).
>
> So what am I missing? Help me out here...
>
>
> --
> David Beierl - Providence RI USA -- http://pws.prserv.net/synergy/Vanagon/
> '84 Westy "Dutiful Passage," '85 GL "Poor Relation"
>
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