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Date:         Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:56:10 -0400
Reply-To:     David Milo <dellaone@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         David Milo <dellaone@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Water 4 Gas. com Does it work? Has Anyone Tried it? Know of
              It?
Comments: To: craig cowan <phishman068@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To:  <d1ea9acf0807131722o2fb80a08h1f28769197d0894@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

"And no, i'm not an engineer".

No, not now, but you should be....

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 8:22 PM, craig cowan <phishman068@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well i'm in the process of designing and gathering parts for the > experiemental stages of what i hope to eventually be a "hybrid" HHO vanagon > but will work in 3 main steps: > 1. Design and proof of concept > 2. Prototype HHO powered lawn tractor > 3. "production' vanagon system. > > I've begun the gathering of the parts, and have the design well refined. I > have conducted some proof of concept experiments with great success, and > have learned alot about the system. I see the flaw that everyone else does > and realise that this closed system cannot possibly generate energy without > defying the laws of physics. (Generate meaning create new). Well the > argument that the people on the side of HHO give is that "plenty of people > have done this, and with great success". Personally, i can't see how. It > still defys physics in that in the very least, you'd have to recharge your > battery from time to time (But is that so bad?). > There is a solution though, one that i've never heard of touched on thus > far. It's simple really......make the closed system open. > My solution, a solar panel. > > Now the concept works, almost entirely without significant problems. Our > HHO > generator does not need to be 100% efficient, we can realize that engines > aren't even close to 100% efficient anyway, and combat our losses by ADDING > ENERGY, a renewable "free" source.....the sun. I fail to see drawbacks with > the HHO idea from anything but a design and safety standpoint with that > solution stated. > > The O2 sensor is not much of a hinderence if you build the right > circuitry...... > Heck in a very very advanced HHO system, it would be your biggest assett > (theoretically adjusting automatically on the fly the Fuel air ratio as it > should, along with the fuel/air to HHO ratio (trying to use as much HHO as > possible)). > > And no, i'm not an engineer. Just someone with to much time and > 'impractical > knowledge' for my own good. > > -Craig > '85GL (Soon to read: '85GL-H) > > > On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 7:56 PM, David Beierl <dbeierl@attglobal.net> > wrote: > > > At 06:38 PM 7/13/2008, miguel pacheco wrote: > > > >> Uhm, read on, the O2 thing is no longer an issue.............. > >> Possible or not, it looks like a fun project. > >> > > > > I've got one question, in two* parts. > > > > A: How much energy does it take to electrolyze the water to H and O? > > B: How much energy do you get back by burning the stuff? Is it as > > much as you spent to make it? Hint: No, it isn't. > > C: What's the efficiency of the gasoline --> mechanical --> > > electrical cycle that generates the current to electrolyze the > > water? Guessing 30% in the engine times 80% in the alternator... :-( > > D: Where does the energy come from to do this? Hint: The Gasoline. > > > > *Our THREE main weapons are surprise, fear, ruthless efficiency and > > fanatical devotion to the Pope! > > > > TANSTAAFL. The three laws of thermodynamics say you can't win, you > > can't break even, and you can't get out of the game. There's no > > question that you suffer a net loss of energy by hydrolyzing water > > and then burning the products, made worse by the various > > inefficiencies attendant on generating the electricity. So *IF* this > > method works at all, it has to be by somehow increasing the > > efficiency of the Otto engine cycle by a considerable amount, i.e. > > getting considerably more mechanical output from somewhat less > > thermal input. AFAIK the only remaining area for large improvements > > in recovery of mechanical effort from the thermal cycle involve > > raising the operating temperature of the engine which is currently > > constrained by materials (Smokey Yunick once hoped, maybe still does, > > to build a ceramic engine that would run continuously red-hot for > > just this reason). > > > > So what am I missing? Help me out here... > > > > > > -- > > David Beierl - Providence RI USA -- > http://pws.prserv.net/synergy/Vanagon/ > > '84 Westy "Dutiful Passage," '85 GL "Poor Relation" > > >


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