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Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:01:47 -0700
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Exhausting work.... Advice solicited.
Comments: To: Greg Potts <greg@POTTSFAMILY.CA>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
              reply-type=response

re : "it's all hanging from the engine,'............................. since the inception of the 4 cyldiner opposed rear engine VW.........car or van........ the Entire Exhaust System is always, and ONLY mounted entirely on the engine - no hangers to the body etc.

if there are exhaust hangers to the body ...........that's hack work by an exhaust shop, which is pretty common unfortunately.

the 2.1 muffler is larger diameter than the 1.9 one - so generally.............you don't mix 1.9 and 2.1 exahsut parts. they also use a very different support bracket system as you've discoved.

I'm not suprised the thing is still loud ! Sounds like a VERY cobbled together system. The stock system..........either 1.9 or 2.1 is not bad.................IF taken care of. That means a good solid installation, and anything does get out of whach.......... say an exhaust port gasekt blowing out - take care of it properly, soon.

other tricks- it only helps some, but assemble things with copper-based anti-seize compound. It 'might' come apart easier later. Always paint all the exhaust system parts with hi-temp exhaust paint. it's quick n' easy to clean the pipes with a power wire brush - like on a Mikita angle grinder - takes just 30 seconds to clean a pipe plenty well enough to paint it. In the winter, warm the spary paint in a pan of warm water first. Helps it spray and stick better. Don't overdo the warming of the paint !

I'd much rather see studs in the heads with nuts on them, rather than bolts into the head. The nuts are very easy to heat and remove later. The bolt threads actually go a pretty long way into the heads. They can be really hard to get out without the head breaking off after a few years. 'stock new' they start out with studs on one end of the head, and bolts on the other end. I like all studs with nuts. You can't just move the exhasut pipe back a quarter inch to sneak in a port gasket that way ...........but it's a more solid installation and much easier to deal with rust-wise a few years later. I never ever have exhaust port gaskets blowing out. You need to start with properly flat pipe flanges, and put the whole thing together really nicely, and exhust port gaskets last indeffenitely. I've never had a pipe crack either, but I see plenty of welded ones.

A hollow cat is not actually a good thing - may now flow as well.............turbulence inside you know. So a straight pipe is far better than a hollowed-out cat. An 'oxygen sensor bung' is like totally 'no big deal' to a good exahsut shop. A good shop will have a bin full of new ones, and they can weld one in nicely anywhere there is decent enough metal to work with.

that mileage 18.3 .............is not out of the normal range........you could hope for 20 mpg ( manual trans I assume - auto trans eats power and fuel economy ) ...........I would for sure have either a good cat, or a straight pipe in place of a cat .........or a hollowed out cat with a straight pipe welded inside it. That gives you proper straigth-through flow but the right flanges already there. Nice n' easy to do for any shop. Exhaust shops man not want to modify a cat that way for legal reasons..........but it's a slick repair where smog checks are not a factor.

hope this helps Gregg. to get a good exhaust system out of used parts.............which is VERY doable...........you have to have more tools - like welding capability ..........OR.......this works........use all high quality new aftemarket parts..........or, you're at the mercy of exahsut shops. Your common exhasut shop .............not that good a deal at all. They are more interested in high-dollar 'all new' exhaust systems on newer cars. And the labor they would charge to install a vanagon exahaust system might be excessive, and not being someting they do every day, they are likely to do a lousy job, charge way too much, or both. IF you are going to pay someon to work on it, a VW shop is probably the best deal. also.........I do this all the time..............and this works really well. 'the hard part' of welding anything is figuring it out, setting it up, and prepping the parts for welding. the actual welding is a very small portion of the total effort. I often either tack weld something, or jig up it.........then take that one part to a welder or an exahsut shop and say 'could you weld this one thing please' ........ that should cost almost nothing .........like under 10 bucks. No car to deal with, no thinking or jigging thing up to weld......... this creative way works very well - you set up for them so it's real easy- .........even if you have to mount things to a board or something to get them in alignment............( I havn't had to resort to that , it's just an example of you doing the brain work, and then inexpensively hiring someone to do the professional welding part ) ...... For a 3 minute weld, ............well................there WAS a time, and perhaps there still ........when you could go into a small friendly perhaps one-man shop.............ask for a small job like that, that's easy for the guy ..............and for charging he'd say 'ah............. I catch ya next time.' It can be that easy and simple to get something that you just hand to a welder , welded. Or it 'should' be !

I don't usualy sell used exhaut parts, as I keep them to restore the vans I retore to sell.......but I have a lot of 'all that sttuff' 1.9 and 2.1. And I just make a part, like an exahsut support strape too sometimes when I need one. scott www.turbovans.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Potts" <greg@POTTSFAMILY.CA> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:10 PM Subject: Exhausting work.... Advice solicited.

> Hi volks, > > OK, yesterday AM I spent some quality time under my 1.9-powered '87 > wolfsburg, trying to see how to make the back end a bit quieter. > > Problem #1. The entire exhaust is all welds, from front to back. > problem #2. The muffler and cat both have leaks from the top, where my > welder can't reach to patch them. > Problem #3. The system has no hangers installed, it's all hanging from > the engine, except for one rubber-grommeted hanger off the tip of the > muffler. > > So the first thing I tried was to install a 2.1 exhaust hanger I bought > at BusFusion. Unfortunately, I can't fit it between the engine hanger > and the 3-4 crosspipe. So I cut off the bottom section with my trusty > angle-grinder. Now all I need are some hardened 6" long M10 bolts and I > an install the bracket. Unfortunately brafasco isn't open on weekends, > so that mod will have to wait. > > The next thing I did was to remove the muffler, which was held on with a > U-clamp. And as it turned out, the muffler was about 1/8" bigger than > the pipe it was attached too, and the U-clamp was used to make up the > difference. In the process the clamp mangled the input flange pretty > bad, and it eventually started leaking. Luckily, I have a spare "cherry > Bomb" muffler. Unluckily, it has the same size input pipe as the one I > just took off. Luckily, my brother has a pipe flanging tool I can > borrow. So I borrow the tool and flange the pipe out a bit and the > muffler now fits snugly enough. In the process of expanding the pipe I > had a little problem with the flanging tool and subsequently discovered > that the catalytic converter is completely hollow, though it still has > the O2 sensor in it. Interesting. I supported the new muffler for the > time being with a 2" bracket that I welded to the #2 cylinder exhaust > header. > > Unfortunately the vehicle is still pretty loud. The worst of the sound > has now been determined to be coming from the #4 exhaust gasket, or more > likely from the lack (or failure) thereof. Looking at the heads it > appears that it's done up with bolts all round, which I will take as a > good sign. I tightened the #4 bolts a bit and neither of them broke on > me, but the exhaust noise is still there. I guess I will have to pull > the whole works down and put new gaskets in, and in that case I will > probably switch over to a rusty but complete 2.1 exhaust I picked up > cheap at the busFusion swap meet. I'll have to have it sandblasted and > POR'd before then... is there a POR for high-heat applications anyone > here would recommend, or should I just put it up as-is? Ceramic coating > is not in the budget right now, nor is a Stebro system, much as I'd like > one. One stumbling block there is that the 2.1 system I have has a > straight pipe fitted in place of the catalytic converter with no place > to mount the O2 sensor. Perhaps I can swap over the pseudo-cat from my > current system, but it has no flanges, so that's gonna be a bit of a > hack. Sigh. > > Also, over the past few months I have had a pretty regular 18.3 MPG (US > Gallon) gas milage with mostly lightly loaded highway driving at 65-70 > MPG. I would have expected a bit better from a non-westy. Are the > exhaust leaks or the lack of a catalytic converter are affecting my > milage, or is this more likely a "state-of-tune" issue. > > If you volks have some advice to help ensure people see me coming before > they hear me coming, it would be greatly appreciated. > > > Happy Trails, > > Greg Potts > 1973/74/79 Westfakia "Bob the Tomato" > 1987 Wolfsburg Weekender Hardtop > www.busesofthecorn.com > www.pottsfamily.ca


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