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Date:         Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:53:52 -0400
Reply-To:     pickle vanagon <greenvanagon@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         pickle vanagon <greenvanagon@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Water 4 Gas. com Does it work? Has Anyone Tried it? Know of
              It?
In-Reply-To:  <5a099d980807151146v28706d07s48a4ab95f3e1776d@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I'm not sure at what point this thread becomes off-topic, but in responding I'm assuming that we're still within list etiquette.

Here are some reasons to disbelieve that the water4gas stuff works:

It makes an extraordinary claim, but offers no extraordinary evidence. There has been no controlled test by anybody which showed improvements. The hearsay results that have been reported in this thread (20-30% improvement) are about what one would expect to gain with nothing more than a change in driving habits, plus a little wishful thinking.

And, here is a big one: Nobody is actually selling this product!!!! I mean, come on... they're selling a BOOK for a hundred dollars!

If this really worked, they could mass-produce a kits for some common car makes/models (they could even just start with just one to cut down on costs), and sell them and make a killing. In fact, with the demand for high mpg cars these days, they could make a killing CONVERTING new cars to be sold at premium prices.

Instead, they've taken a huge potential market for their idea (people who want better gas mileage---i.e., everybody) and restricted themselves to selling to an absolutely tiny market (people willing to buy a DIY book for a hundred dollars that claims to show them how to modify their own cars to double their gas mileage). Why should we believe this is the direction they decided to take? They are scientific geniuses who have discovered a revolutionary new piece of technology, but are absolute idiots when it comes to communication/business/marketing? I mean, seriously, these would have to be some really inept people if they have a product that doubles gas mileage, and the only way I hear about it is on the vanagon list.

Really, if you are even entertaining the idea that this idea works, you shouldn't be thinking about putting this system in a vanagon. You should take out a loan, buy yourself a honda civic (or some other common car), get the system working good, bring in the investors, and mass produce a product that you can guarantee-or-double-your-money-back will double your fuel mileage in whatever common car model you chose. The rest is future history. You will be quickly be incredibly rich, famous around the world in every country, and will be remembered 500 years from now as a revolutionary figure who played a major role in the mitigating human consumption of oil.

For this reason alone, it is really only rational to entertain the plausibility of far-reaching claims like those on the water4gas site if they are too new for this to have happened yet---in my opinion, this means something like 3-4 weeks. But water4gas has been around for quite a bit longer than that, and has been discussed on this list a few times before (nobody here seems to have gotten their system working though...).

This is the most telling part of the website, in my opinion (from the FAQ):

----BEGIN QUOTE----- Can you tell me exactly how much I can save?

No. I will not even estimate. All I can promise you is zero to start with, and you are totally responsible for the rest. And you should be happy with what YOUR CAR can achieve. Don't take it bad, let me explain:

Our technology works. You can read the testimonials. Many people have saved 50% and beyond. You can visit me in Hollywood and see my car in action. However, this cannot be turned into a PROMISE or a guarantee of any kind. No gains, or very little gain, can be achieved IF:

1. The vehicle has been "chipped" or otherwise modified to high performance, or

2. There is something else wrong with the vehicle, mechanically or electrically. The vehicle must be in good shape!

As far as I know, and I may be wrong, the best models for BETTER fuel economy are those that are already good on economy as well as diesels and carburated vehicles. Gas hungry vehicles such as giant SUV's are NOT geared for economy, although we can still improve them. If you can afford to choose, go for the more economical vehicle or truck that fits your needs.

---END QUOTE---

If this sh*t was real, they would figure out something that they could guarantee or double-your-money back. (For example, the mileage increase for some particular models of cars.) But they don't. Not even for the model of car that the "inventor" drives. I love the idea of going to "see" his car. Will he let me ride around with him for a whole tank of gas and watch him drive twice as far as he should be able to with EPA mileage ratings? If anybody can arrange this, I will personally fly out there and report back on my experience. Seriously.

-Wes

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Neil2 <vidublu@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, I've not studied (because I intend to wait until me brother gets his > system finalized and proofed and has used it awhile) but I've still no > doubt > it does improve performance and increase fuel mileage. As for engine > lifespan issues I'll ask and if the topic arises again I'll at least have a > second hand response. That is one issue I've not heard raised. > > Like I care what is illegal (as long as it's safe) when the 'guvment' can't > even build/maintain bridges, educate children properly, secure the borders, > et cetera. IF HHO worked AND the majority of Amerikuns installed one, > that'd be more effective than all the emissions efforts thus far. 30% > increase in me Westy is about 40mpg! > > Amicalement! > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Jeff @ Autostadt West <vw.doka@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > > The best "explanation" I've read of why water4gas works at all is that it > > is > > basically the equivalent of adding a water injection system to your > > vehicle. > > The water increases the octane of the fuel because it slows combustion. > > Unfortunately, water injection will also substantially decrease the > > lifespan > > of your engine. > > > > The miniscule amount of hydrogen that is produced has a negligible effect > > on > > your engine's performance. > > > > One more thing... the modification of your vehicle's emissions system is > > illegal in most states. Not that they're going to hunt you down or > > anything. > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > -- > Neil2 > '86 Vanagon/Weekender in process (Savannah) > Nunquam Pendite Divendium >


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