Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 19:21:07 -0700
Reply-To: Randal Jett <randal_jett@YAHOO.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Randal Jett <randal_jett@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: ECU optimization -- one quick question
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Yep, that's just it, my van is not where it belongs! Ideally I would be nearly home already if I lived close to other van nuts and we could swap parts, at will, finding ultimate combinations and outcomes. (deju va just now kinda cool) -- Too bad I'm 2,000 miles from Oregon, maybe less since you're near Bend or wherever. At least there is email.....
Finished my sandwich so back to my reply to your first email. I'm not going to get stuck on that shop that screwed me but I just have to add this; they said they installed a 'tall' gear in my trans to lower rpms in 4th and I always wondered about it because I could just swear it was no different than stock. I recently came across an really cool excel spreadsheet model of trans ratios to model gearing changes -- found it at the svx yahoo groups site -- it helped me determine that I DEFINATELY have a stock trans and that dang-fill-foulth sorry-excuse for a vw repair shop didn't add anything 'tall' to my trans. I'm at 4,100 rpms at 75mph which is stock for 25.6" tires. To say I was angry to find that out for sure is an understandment. Not only that, but they "sold" me new shock too on the same bill. I caught that one right away however when I went out to the van, got down on my knees, leaned over and saw MUD on the rear shocks that matched the
old mud inside the wheelwell. I marched back inside and asked how they got the new shocks inside the old shock coverings. The 'service' manager insisted they put new shocks on. I asked if he was calling me a liar, that I had not just observed that the same old mud was on the "new" shocks. Anyway, I finally got the new shocks, but had no way at the time to hold their feet on that same fire until I got everything I paid for. My ex-fiance lawyer at least had them worrying for a few weeks until they agreed to my minimum conditions, but I knew even as she helped me get down the whole legal path that nobody 'wins' in those circumstances. Just wanted it to be known I'm not one of those "just sue 'em" hotheads. Only case I ever pushed toward court and I'll be just fine if it's the only legal action with which I'm ever associated.
OK, now about the '87.5 -- when do you think the cut-off is for the 1988 models? To ask yet another way, does anybody know when model year production dates start and end?
I got a reply off-list and it may be that my cat has been contributing to non-spec performance. It has a "floating" baffle that rattles but then quits and I don't hear it for weeks. The idle oscillation and power slump symptoms remain constant and do not correlate to the cat rattle. So, there's that going on in this formula on the back of the door too.
Now, the AFM was disassembled and R&R'd by me within the last 5,000 miles. I did find some thin films of oil, nothing major. I've messed with the throttle spring from time to time, when winter got it stuck it needs to be tweaked by hand, so I did that. I have the VW AFM harness, the $140 one -- do you endorse those Scott?
I've gotta go have some applesause now -- indigestion again. I'm still reading through your email looking for what you recommend I do. I'll get back to this reply shortly.
Randal in Illinois (only temporarily)
'87.5 Wolfsburg patient stock
----- Original Message ----
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>
To: Randal Jett <randal_jett@YAHOO.COM>; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 5:37:50 PM
Subject: Re: Re: ECU optimization -- one quick question
nice to see your very communitcating post.
Too late in this case.............but one thing that really works is when
your van is running perfectly.........buy components at pick n' pull type
junkyards - usually very cheap. And immediately try each one out on your
van, and note how well it works. If a new unit is good, I but a number on
it, like '2' to keep from mixing it up with my primary ecu or whatever, and
stash it under the back seat.
also........in my opinion , the weakest area is the Air Flow meter. One one
1.9 waterboxer engine was sorting out ..........I had 5 different AFM's to
try on it. Only one was smooth throughout the rpm band. The next best one
had a tiny stumble about mid-rpm.
these were just used AFM's though.
But for little stumbles in acceleration...........my attention is very
directed to the AFM. Anywhere something mechanical and electronics
interface - a likely trouble spot.
yeah, I shoulda figured you were talking about a sub-board in the ECU. I
don't quite have normal brain wiring either, btw. Gets me in trouble all the
time - lol !
long shot, but I'm wondering if you have a 1.9 wiring harness adatped to
your 2.1 engine !
The ecu on a 1.9 wbxr goes behind the left taillight, just sitting there in
a bracket.
I've looked into it, and I'm pretty sure the 1.9 wiring harness is not long
enough to let the ECU be under the back seat.
If you don't want to enlarge the hole under the back seat................I'm
pretty sure you feed the entire harness, except for the ECU plug, through
that hole.
I don't think you want to be going to that shop again in any case.
and I would have to say ..........
say some shop did do something unorthadox like loacte the ecu in the engine
compartment, or install, or figure out that someone adapted a 1.9
harness............they should AT LEAST TELL YOU that's what they did or
figured out !~!
I frequently get calls from people after other shops have done engine
conversion work or general vanagon repair.
when I ask them ...........'did they do such and such? '............
like on on AAZ turbo diesel engine conversion for $ 12,000, they didn't
connect the Injection Advance Cable........
at the very least they owe it to the customer to tell them they don't
believe in that system, or there were parts missing.........or
SOMETHING.........this woman has to call me from Aspen Colorado, after
spending 12 grand for a conversion, to find out they never conencted that
cable, nor told her that they didn't for some reason. or perhaps they just
plain spaced it out.
but ...........really............I hear of stuff like this all the time.
Evendently it's 'there's you car, it's fixed, bye.'
I swear, barely 2 % of shops know or have any remote concept of what 'real
service' is. It's in my astological chart, or it's my Virgo Moon, or it's
my emoitonially unsafe childhood that makes me want to really take care of
people...........show them what to expect on their vans, etc. etc. Seems
that so many shops don't.
I think it's safe to say you are done with that shop, other than financial
settling.
and.........if it's any consolation............I find them pretty tricky at
times to get really right.
and I have to check at least 30 things on them........
litterally 'everything' ........including the exhasut system, mechaical
engine condition............and everything electronici/electrial, and more.
Iv'e got two right now bugging me ............a tired 2.1 in an 87
Wollfsburg,
and a 2.1 with 1.9 Ecu and wiring harness in an 83 Westy that I want to get
all ready and perfectly dialed in to sell.
and they can get just perfect.
On my 87 Wolfsburg Weekender..........seems all i did was a solid valve and
hed gasket job to a 2.1...........but it into that van with full 2.1 fuel,
cooling, and exhsust systems, .............and just put it all together, and
I think there were no problems.
and it works like a 'new car' .........with auto trans, it's totally idiot
proof - starts right up, idles steadily, never stalls, pulls smoothly
throughout the rpm band...........we should be able to get there on these
waterboxers !
Point is though............i've really had to dig and just keep going to
really get a poorly running waterboxer to be like it should be.
and when they're right........
they do everything just right ( other than not that much power ) . start
right up, idle solidly, go right, get decent mileage.
it IS fixable !
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randal Jett" <randal_jett@YAHOO.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: ECU optimization -- one quick question
Thanks. I know other people have received good treatment here, and I have
hope for the same.
I should add that this van is a solid performer having towed a trailer, a
big dual axle rental trailer 6' x 12' covered uhaul, 1,000 miles
cross-country with absolutely no issues save the 35 mph slog up some hills
in the southern rockies. It's a great van and if and when I have to sell, it
will go with full disclosure, and if it has to be sold soon before I track
down the ECU options, I will have a clear conscience that it is completely
roadworthy.
Ok, that being clear, that I'm in a fine-tuning stage and not a critical
broken-down scenario here -- the icU is the integrated circuit unit, a
sub-board component either on or beside the motherboard of the eCu. (I use
caps to emphasize letters of importance.) My old buddies in the electrical
engineering sangha, who I haven't talked to in years, explained it to me
once and the details are a little fuzzy, I'll admit, but that was the gist
of it. It's just part of the ECu and I could have written that and it would
have the same meaning -- trust me.
Exactlty right Scott, that shope screwed me! I'm sure about that. I mean
really, what the hell is the ECU doing back in the engine bay with a zip tie
on it holdin' it down? I looked at trying to get it back under the seat
where I know it belongs, but there is not way to get the connectors through
the little hole and I'm not gonna go drilling away just to change the
location. There's not enough length on the shang-hi'd harness they sent me
off with either. It's got to stay where it is. I keep telling myself I
should put a plastic bag around it once I get this little idle/power quirk
nailed down.
Now I know the oxygen content is in question but if it's way off, I should
be having other problems too. I'm not, in fact some aspects of the burn are
getting better week to week, and it's hard to complain when results are
flowing in with little reverse negative symptoms. REally I've got no
negative weighted symptoms to drag down the positive features of what they
did in the shop. Not to sound confusing, I just want it to be known that my
van is not in terrible shape at all, it's really the best vehicle I've ever
had for any length of time. This thread is about fine tuning.
I am in a remote area. To swap the ECu or AFM would mean going back to the
shop that I have good reason to not trust, and they have done little post my
insistence for legal action beyond the minimum. If I go for trying to get a
list member to send me a good AFM or Euc, I really can't know for sure what
I will get. That place that worked on my van, the place that had me stranded
in Utah for most of my vacation, where me and two phd. friends spent 3+ days
crawling over the engine (instead of casual rock climbing that we went there
to do), pulling it apart trying to dry out the cylinders by pushing rag bits
into the spark plug holes -- those are not pleasant memories, and gave me
good cause to learn about how to work on my own engine. So, it runs as is,
and I really can't complain much, becuase I'm getting down the road without
stopping to wait for the bucking and lurching to pass. I am happy for that
much. It's just that if I have to go to that
shop again, and I just might anyway, they had better be prepared to give me
what I need in the way I need it. Not like they would want it if they were
me, feeding me tons and tons of information and facts, when all I really
needed was a couple of value-based gestures that worked for me. Going back
for a AFM/CPU swap heh? I guess the question is also something about can ego
afford it. But no, I do still feel they owe me money, and going back without
a reply by mail from them, which is what I asked for before they sic'd their
sleeze-ball lawyer on my well-meaning ex-fiance lawyer chick. Not the reason
for the ending of that relationship, but it didn't help. (Might've helped
her in some way, just a guess.) Ah, but I digress.....
I'm still reading your email Scott and will write a second note after I have
a sandwich. I think I answered some of your points. Thanks for the quick
reply. We'll get this sucker nailed eventually!
Randal
----- Original Message ----
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>
To: Randal Jett <randal_jett@YAHOO.COM>; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 4:19:32 PM
Subject: Re: ECU optimization -- one quick question
Hi there !
I hope the list can help you out here, with these issues.
one, would you mind defining 'ICU board' ................???
dont' know what you're talking about there. Very curious.
two ...........re "Removing the eCU for inspecting and the 're-flow'
involved unleashing the unit from the zip-tie and foam pad it was resting on
in the driver's engine bay well."
This sure doesn't sound right.
the ECU on an 86 and later Vanagon with 2.1 engine is mounted under the back
seat, attached to, and under a nice metal cover.
So what could be the deal with your ECU if it's z-tied in the engine
compartmetn somewhere ??
re 'a bad ecu' ...........I just have a few different ones to
try.......known good ones. You should have a known good ECU as a back-up
and for trouble shooting - or.......that's sure one handy way to test for
bad componenets- try swapping in known good used ones.
Iv'e got the same thing going on with my 87 wolfsburg............
though I still don't knwo why you call yours a 1987.5 since we talked about
it, and I have the full blown Wolfsburg treatment with al the goodies and
special equipment, and it's a january 87 production date, so one wouldnt'
think that's 87 and 1/2.
but anyway.........
I'm working on essentially the same thing on mine.
it'll start and run. it runs very weakly at a cold idle.
as though the Air idle Valve isnt' doing it's thing, or the control unit.
Did you consider and test for vaccuum leaks !!?
those can be hard to track down and find, and cause all kinnds of
inconsisent or weak idle and cold idle issues.
i'm very tempted to try out my various compents on my perfectly starting,
idling and running 2.1 waterboxer engine in my 85 Wolfsburg Weekender.
I also can tell I'm fighting, on this particular engine in the 87 Wolfsburg,
very high miles and low compression.......
but even still..........I 'should' be able to get it starting, idling and
running right.
Once underway, like 30 mph .........she just rips too. Very perky and fast.
I can clearly see that the place to start on any real vanagon 'complete
re-do and refurbish' is with a thorough engine job.
Got one right here I need to keep going on- a 2.1 engine. Gotta get those
heads in a machine shop.
sorry to babble here - my bottom line, always consider vacuum leaks. They
can really gettcha.
And it has to be somehwere between..........
the harness, the sensors and inputs, the ECU, the Idle Valve and it's
control unit, or the engine itself.
in any case, it's a 'blockage or leakage of fluids or electrons.'
( and not everyone realizes that 'fluids' include vaccuum, exhaust, air, egr
if equipped, etc. 'fluid' also includes gases.
it's just one or more leakages or bloackages.
WHERE they are, that's the essense of the problem.
find them.........and then it's pretty easy.
and I realized that's why I want to know where someone's broken down van
is.......WHERE it is, is the very first step in getting fluids, or blown out
hoses or whatever where they belong.
scott
www.turbovans.com
fwiw...........read about a Porsche technician - fanatic - he said that all
the ECU's that he's seen and worked on ..............they never actually
fail........but they get cracked soldering joints, and that's how he fixes
them, fixing those failed soldered connnections.
also.........of 25 ECu's or more I've played with on vanagons
..............very, very few have I ever identified as actually faulty.
I always consider the ECU, but I don't automatically go there right away.
and ...........it's very often not one bad thing................but 6 half
bad or weak things that all add up.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randal Jett" <randal_jett@YAHOO.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 1:38 PM
Subject: ECU optimization -- one quick question
I have been following, with great interest, all the conversations about the
guy with the 1984 ECU issues, looking for a good match, known good or not
ECU, and so forth. It got me thinking about my 1987.5 stock Wolfsburg and
the idle profile post the last shop visit. I had some troubles with that
shop who will remain annonymous because the issues that came from their work
indeed were so serious that I had to enlist legal help to get over our
stalemate. That was then and this is now, so back to my ECU. Here's what I
know and what I've tried so far. Maybe there is some experience on this list
that can help me consider the next opportunity for what to try or do.
My issue is also with the idle, the surge/stall features at requests for
power at the engine, and mpg is, well, just OK enough at close to low-mid
20's
1. Removed and cleaned wiring harness; unwrapped looking for any shorts or
'mystery' wires -- found nothing unusual
2. Did a 'test reflow' on solder on the ICU board paying attention to the
big resistors in particular. I gave only a little heat not wanting to over
charge any of the delicate circuitry that was so painstakenly manufactured
and installed. This, I think, was a very good idea as a first step
3. Removing the eCU for inspecting and the 're-flow' involved unleashing the
unit from the zip-tie and foam pad it was resting on in the driver's engine
bay well. I wiped the cobwebs out of this area before putting the unit back
together clean.
4. Back to the innards of the ECU -- I did observe some gold potential
connections, maybe copper but liked like it could indeed be gold, and I
avoided getting too close to these as the reflow solder operation was
specificalleya to the silver stuff only. I did NOT string solder 'saliva
stringie' all over the board thereby at risk of contamination of these other
colored terminals/PCboard features. So, that's not it at a minimum, I'm
sure.
5. After reinstall of the ECU in the van body, and reconnection of the
engine harness, which I had premarked with all connections and wires without
connection terminations so I would not just start soldering on terminals in
my absent-minded considion when I sometimes get that way with my nose over
the engine -- I did not succomb to it becasue I had taken pictures of the
engine in advance of wiring harness removal to make sure I could remember
where everything went back on. (I learned that on the hard way from another
project years ago.)
6. I tested the reassembled ECu and engine harness configuration, which as
stated above, was identical to the way it was removed. It worked just like
before, with the same idle stumble, surge/stall at acceleration
request/demand and I'm still puzzled.
7. I did not do anything with the oxygen sensor except disconnect it when I
removed the harness and reconnect when I put the harness back on.
So that's it for what I know I have done to it. If any of you, especially
the ones who have had the case open on the ECU, could reply with ideas for
what is possibly going on, and in your experience what other information
would help me, I would be forever grateful in the event that I have gotten
lucky and won a big, big lottery -- I would gladly share the proceeds!
Randal
'87.5 wolfsburg patient stock configuration
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