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Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:20:31 -0500
Reply-To:     Jim Felder <jim.felder@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Jim Felder <jim.felder@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Are Today's Young People Mechanical Nitwits?
Comments: To: Jake de Villiers <crescentbeachguitar@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To:  <71d9cdf90808151657i7805c314teeb30bed91310c0a@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Sorry, but that's not politics, it's economics and anthropology. But it's not vanagons, either.

Jim

On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Jake de Villiers <crescentbeachguitar@gmail.com> wrote: > I know its Frday and all, but keep the f*cking politics OFF THE LIST! > > On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Oliver Mueller-Heubach < > groundhogging@mac.com> wrote: > >> Sorry.. too many articles I've had to read for school on whether >> agriculture was a good or bad move for humans (cultural ecology, >> paleoepidemiology, etc.). What we know as non-agricultural and non- >> industrial societies today are almost entirely transformed by fallout >> from world capitalism, so hard to know what it would really be like >> (nowhere near the present conditions, though). Hunter-forager life >> would be more sustainable and there would be more gain per unit >> effort as far as food. There would be no cities, hence less disease >> threat, etc. Limited food would limit reproduction and the lions, >> tigers, and bears would do the rest... I didn't say it would ever >> work again- we are creatures of habit and comfort hounds to boot >> >> On Aug 15, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Joy Hecht wrote: >> >> On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Oliver Mueller-Heubach < >>> groundhogging@mac.com> wrote: >>> >>> Depends on what classifies as a good standard of living. Without >>>> agriculture, we might be considerably better off in some ways, >>>> with more >>>> free time and better health within a certain age range. >>>> >>>> >>> Huh? Without agriculture, what are you going to eat? Either >>> someone else >>> grows it and you buy it, or you spend all your time growing crops. >>> Agriculture is a VERY risky business, takes a lot of time. I don't >>> know any >>> farmers, but what I've read about being one emphasizes CONSTANT >>> work and you >>> can't ever take a break. >>> >>> >>> We might only live to 30, but we would be closer to the earth and >>>> those >>>> around us. >>>> >>>> >>> I'll take another 60 years over that, any day! >>> >>> >>> At least the 1/10 of a percent of the current population that could >>>> sustained without surpluses, etc. I'm not sure we're any better >>>> off than >>>> most pre-industrial civilizations (even with states, organized >>>> religions, >>>> and agriculture). >>>> >>>> >>> I work in non-industrial civilizations. Life is damned hard. A >>> huge amount >>> of work, and nothing to do when you aren't working except maybe >>> talk to your >>> neighbors or get drunk or have sex. No books, no communications, no >>> electricity, no transportation. Little or nothing in the way of >>> schools, medical care, sewage, clean drinking water. Sex leads to >>> yet more >>> children, which makes life even harder, especially when it comes to >>> what >>> land they will inherit to live on - land doesn't multiply the way >>> children >>> do. No privacy whatsoever living in a small village. Basically no >>> choices. But yeah, you are close to the earth, that's for sure. >>> >>> I'll take specialization of labor and longer life over that any >>> day! And >>> for those who want to work on their own cars, why that's an option >>> as well, >>> in the world we live in. Choice is a good thing. If young folks >>> don't >>> choose to work on cars, let's cheer the fact that they can do what >>> they want >>> either way, instead of bemoaning that they don't choose what some >>> on this >>> list prefer. >>> >>> >>> Joy >>> >> >> Oliver Mueller-Heubach >> groundhogging@mac.com >> > > > > -- > Jake > 1984 Vanagon GL > 1986 Westy Weekender "Dixie" > Crescent Beach, BC > www.crescentbeachguitar.com > http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27 >


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