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Date:         Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:56:14 -0700
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Engine Replacement or Gasket Fix?
Comments: To: Chris S <szpejankowski@GMAIL.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original

deep breathe here.............. good that you're checking out the options. for paying someone to do it - I like the 2nd option. I would not want anyone who dislikes waterboxers and wants to charge 80 an hour touching it. Sounds like a bad attitude all around.

the second guys sound more reasonable, though that 4 day turn around, not sure about that.

but ............here's my main point..........I really think it's counterproductive to worry too much until getting the facts, and facts start with some disassembly and inspection. so......the first step is SOMEBODY has to take off a head or two. if you noticed, I already suggested the other day........it's not 'real bad' to do one head at a time, engine in the van.

where you are likely to have the most difficulty there is with rusted exhaust pipe studs/botls and nuts. Those you really don't want to break off. A torch sure helps, and there are other tricks- the candle trick has been mentioned lately, and I've just been using it - sure works nicely. you get that rusted nut really hot - then put a candle to it ..........the wax gets sucked in , and does an amazing job of getting the two parts unstuck from each other.

but IF you were to attempt it yourself...........I would identify the worst looking side , in terms of leakage, and go for removing just that head. And proceed from there. That doesn't take lots of special tools or anything.

if not doing it this way, I'd go with the remove the engine 60 an hour guys. That they'll squeeze it between 'other quick jobs' during the day makes me flat nervous.

as a full time professional myself.........I can only say that with the normal 8 to 5 work day system..........there flat is NO WAY that really good workmanship can happen 100 % of the time. the pressure to get things done by 5:30 or whatever..........is a pure joke and a tragedy to me. Can't tell you enough how most work I see is 'short' somehow. Poorly done, assembled incorrectly cheap parts etc.

I sure would not use an American company gaskets either. to put thing in perspective price-wise on head gasket sets, German ones that I get are around $ 80 per side, something close to there. ( if they want to charge say , over 200 for some Felpro thing...........well.............as long as they stand behind it ! but I don't like that kind of stuff at all - good German parts only. )

AND, since you have some relationship with that shop already .............and you're nervous about doing it yourself, I strongly suggest you take it to the 60 an hour guys, tell them that the MAIN THING you want is it done really well. Having it done in 4 or 5 days is secondary. if you need to get by without a car for a few days ............you'll live, or bike, or rent or borrow.

I also find most waterboxer exhaust valves leaking a little, and usually take the heads to a machine shop for a standard 'don't-go-crazy' valve job. That's knurl the guides, and a standard resurfacing of the valve faces. I've been paying $ 148 for two heads for that recently, which is certainly tolerable.

I would also tell them to be very careful unscrewing the cylinder head nuts. Mostly they feel like something is going to break, but they unscrew. If a nut doesn't , but the stud snaps off down in the block...........you are in big, big trouble then. If there is severe corrosion evident on /in the engine, I'd be extra careful there. I spent an hour or two removing a very stuck nut by drilling into the top of it ......and heating it.........but I got it off without breaking off a stud. And they normally feel scary anyway .........but usually the nut unscrews OK, from the stud.

not actually asking for a job here....... but one of my services is being a consultant or your agent - that is, I talk to the shop, or answer their questions, and generally empower them to do it right, and especially to do it carefully. - there is another trick, for example, to carefully check the gab for the outer water retention gasket, if that gap is too small, it'll pinch the rubber gasket after a while, too big, and it won't compress the gasket enough to seal very well. it's a silly design actually, and quite poorly executed. I much prefer to use the heads that are already on the engine unless there is something really wrong with them. hope it goes well ! Scott www.turbovans.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris S" <szpejankowski@GMAIL.COM> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Engine Replacement or Gasket Fix?

> Dude, do what you can afford. > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Robert Stewart > <robertmstewart@mac.com>wrote: > >> I spoke with two of my local mechanics, the old school VW guy will do >> the job but he hates doing these jobs and would not remove the engine >> he says. But he wants $80 an hour and says is 12 hours, this sounds >> like way to much. I asked I could assist and he flat out said no, I >> would slow him down. The other guys said they would do it in about 4 >> days. Pull the engine out and over the course of a week would work in >> between other quick jobs. >> >> We agreed that I could take the top components, clean them, repaint >> them before installation. They are $60 an hour and would bill for 11 >> book hours but they are no VW experts just regular mechanics who have >> worked on my van over the last year. >> >> The idea of my doing it myself is exciting and scary. >> >> Sounds like I would spend around maybe $200 -$300 in tools? >> if I have to take the engine out that scare me to think of doing it >> myself. So that makes we want to just leave it in van if possible. >> $120 for the gaskets. >> $1,000 for the heads or decent used engine. (part of me feels it >> better to just use my engine and replace the heads and gaskets) >> $1120 total >> >> Myself +$300 >> Total $1,420 >> >> or Mechanic does the work >> >> $1120 parts >> $1400 labor >> $2,520 total >> >> Robert >> >> On Aug 20, 2008, at 11:10 PM, The Westy man wrote: >> >> Rob, >>> The job is not complicated really, only takes long time. And if you >>> want to paint it POR 15 also, it will take longer, but its worth it. >>> You really only need the basic tools mostly. From 10 to 19 sockets >>> and wrenches with box and open ends. For the sockets you would need >>> extentions also. Two long ones, one very short one and one medium >>> size. A set of allen wrenches, some pair of pliers, philips and >>> flat screw drivers of three sizes, one big and one small adjustable >>> wrench, a small hammer, etc. These are basic tools. >>> Taking the engine out is best with the method I explained and sent >>> pictures with. Its cheap and easy. Once it is out and dragged out >>> from under the car, two guys can put it on the engine stand which >>> you buy at Harbor Freight for $35. >>> Taking the engine out is not difficult at all. One has to >>> disconnect all kind of things. You can put labels on them, because >>> by the time you would put them back, you would forget them where >>> they go and what they are for. You can clean and paint anything you >>> like with POR 15. You can buy head gasket separately, don't need to >>> buy the whole kit, which is expensive and would not use many of the >>> little things of it. Need to get a Right Stuff that you would put >>> on thinly on any existing gasket and it will be same as new. >>> Compressing gaskets are sold separately also. And if you need to >>> change the crank seal, get one too. >>> The only part of the job is critical, when you are putting the head >>> on, but it is simple too, only need to do it in correct sequence and >>> its time related. I'll let you know of it in time. >>> The whole thing can take two weeks if you dilly-dolly and take it >>> slow. But one has to be rather slow and thinking than fast and >>> messing it up. >>> Zoltan >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Stewart" < >>> robertmstewart@mac.com >>> > >>> To: "The Westy man" <zolo@foxinternet.net> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 8:24 AM >>> Subject: Re: Engine Replacement or Gasket Fix? >>> >>> >>> Zoltan, Honestly, >>>> >>>> How long does it take one novice like myself you think to do this >>>> job? >>>> >>>> I wish there was a step by step video instruction of manual. The >>>> bently sucks for beginners. >>>> >>>> What are the exact tools I need? >>>> >>>> What type of parts do I need? >>>> >>>> Tools do I need? >>>> >>>> Can't I just leave the engine in the van and park on some of the >>>> metal or plastic car lifters you see at wallmart? >>>> >>>> The other option could be renting a lift from a local mechanic? >>>> There's a guy 10 miles from that has a vw shop, he a little >>>> eccentric and mostly works on the older buses, the non vanagons. >>>> He did a Go Westy engine transplant 2 yrs ago so I know he knows >>>> what to do, he is just slow and complains. He might let me rent >>>> his lift and lend me a hand, not sure. I have to contact him. His >>>> name is Bill and runs a place called Benko Motors. >>>> >>>> I saw you helped another list member " >>>> http://wavanagon.googlepages.com/home >>>> " - Chis and saw his site in which he did the job, I would love >>>> to remove all the top components from the van, clean them and >>>> paint them with por15. But I imagine that is a month long job and >>>> he seemed to have a garage which I don't. >>>> >>>> Thanks again, >>>> >>>> Rob >>>> >>>> 347.731.7938 cell >>>> >>>> Are in California? If so where? >>>> >>>> Robert >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 20, 2008, at 2:04 AM, The Westy man wrote: >>>> >>>> I am 3k miles away, which does not matter much, only the time zone >>>>> difference. You don't need a whole lot of tools really. I only >>>>> have a fishing box for tool box, that is full of basic tools. >>>>> The first thing would be to make the engine lifter. >>>>> Zoltan >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Stewart" < >>>>> robertmstewart@mac.com >>>>> > >>>>> To: "The Westy man" <zolo@foxinternet.net> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:45 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: Engine Replacement or Gasket Fix? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My problem is that my only spot is the driveway and I have no >>>>>> tools. I can go get some tools though. I appreciate the offer. >>>>>> >>>>>> Where are you located? >>>>>> >>>>>> R >>>>>> On Aug 19, 2008, at 11:38 PM, The Westy man wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have time and space and some tools, you can do it. I >>>>>>> would help you on the phone. >>>>>>> Zoltan >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Stewart" < >>>>>>> robertmstewart@MAC.COM >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 7:41 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Engine Replacement or Gasket Fix? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am in Bloomingburg NY which is just outside of Middletown NY. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> R >>>>>>>> On Aug 19, 2008, at 8:38 PM, Cullen Stewart wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Where are you in NY, NYC or upstate. I am in VT and we have an >>>>>>>>> excellent mechanic near the NY border that may have a line on a >>>>>>>>> solid engine. The garage is called Fast Addiction in >>>>>>>>> Castleton. They >>>>>>>>> are very talented and honest. >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Stewart" < >>>>>>>>> robertmstewart@MAC.COM >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:24 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Engine Replacement or Gasket Fix? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So I just found out that 88 Vanagon has a blown head gasket >>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>> between Cylinder 1 & 2 I was told by my mechanic. I nice >>>>>>>>>> little chunk >>>>>>>>>> is missing he says. That is where my coolant leak is coming >>>>>>>>>> from he >>>>>>>>>> says. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So I just lost my job, position was extinguished. I have a >>>>>>>>>> couple of >>>>>>>>>> months severance and unemployment but I am on a tight budget. >>>>>>>>>> I was >>>>>>>>>> planning on leaving for a California cross country journey in 2 >>>>>>>>>> months. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The van seems to run fine other than adding some coolant >>>>>>>>>> every time >>>>>>>>>> the van sits overnight. Anytime the van is not moving the >>>>>>>>>> coolant >>>>>>>>>> seems to be slowly dripping out. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So what kind of costs am I looking at for the costs of >>>>>>>>>> replacing a >>>>>>>>>> gasket? I assume that I would have both sides done at the >>>>>>>>>> same time. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> or if the cost to high, and is the same as putting in a new >>>>>>>>>> engine.. >>>>>>>>>> who's engine under a budget? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My mechanic told me its between $1,000 - $1,200 for the >>>>>>>>>> removal & >>>>>>>>>> installation of the engine. How much should this be? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Options: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I saw this guy oin Ebay "jake4parts" - he has gotten some >>>>>>>>>> all lot of >>>>>>>>>> good feedback. Anyone know if this guy? His engine is only $975 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1986-1991-VW-Vanagon-Rebuilt-2-1L-Engine-Long-Block_W0QQitemZ320284970269QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item320284970269&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C65%3A1%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "1986 - 1991 VW Vanagon 2.1L Engine Rebuilt (Long Block) >>>>>>>>>> Has all new >>>>>>>>>> bearings, rings and valve job - This engine is completely >>>>>>>>>> resealed >>>>>>>>>> with all new head gaskets and crank seals... Built in our >>>>>>>>>> shop, >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> engines also comes with all installation gaskets to complete >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> installations into your vanagon... Comes with flywheel or >>>>>>>>>> flex plate >>>>>>>>>> - Specify whether you have an automatic or stickshift... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This engine also fits 83-85 Vanagon waterboxers with a small >>>>>>>>>> modification to the center intake manifold plenum (ask for >>>>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>>>> circular)... Comes with a 12mo/12,000mile warranty, technical >>>>>>>>>> bulitens for start-up and break-in as well as selection of >>>>>>>>>> motor oils >>>>>>>>>> for long life and reliability... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Shipping Flat Rate $190.00 to any major city trucking >>>>>>>>>> terminal in the >>>>>>>>>> Continental USA - For Home delivery or Liftgate truck service >>>>>>>>>> add >>>>>>>>>> $96.00" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> $975 engine >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> $190 shipping >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Total $1165 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Boston Bob (Of Course) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2.1 Stock Valve Upgrade >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Upgrade: $2725 + $600 core >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Plus Shipping >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Total $3325 Plus Shipping costs >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Go Westy - Their engine costs are insane so forget that. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subi - out of my range. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have local wreckers that salvage the engines out of cars >>>>>>>>>> that have >>>>>>>>>> been in rear end collisions, they have engines from Jetta >>>>>>>>>> for $500 he >>>>>>>>>> could sell me but I have idea on the condition of the engine. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Anyone have any other ideas? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Robert >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> NY >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>>>> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1612 >>>>>>>> - Release Date: 8/14/2008 6:03 PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1612 - >>>>>> Release Date: 8/14/2008 6:03 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1612 - >>>> Release Date: 8/14/2008 6:03 PM >>>> >>>> >>> > > > -- > Chris S. > "Jeszcze Polska Nie Zginęła" >


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