Vanagon EuroVan
Previous messageNext messagePrevious in topicNext in topicPrevious by same authorNext by same authorPrevious page (August 2008, week 3)Back to main VANAGON pageJoin or leave VANAGON (or change settings)ReplyPost a new messageSearchProportional fontNon-proportional font
Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:06:52 -0700
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Are Today's Young People Mechanical Nitwits?
Comments: To: Doug Alcock <doug.alcock@GMAIL.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
              reply-type=original

hi Doug and all- regarding having someone fix your stuff for you. bottom line - that only 'sort of sometimes' works.

I just went through a 'whole thing' with a Dell Laptop. I bought it from a computer repair shop, I paid them to swap over all my old stuff and set it up ...........figuring that by paying professionals to do it........... I'd have the advantage of their experience and expertise, and I don't mind paying for that.

All was well for a while. But when I had some glitches or problems and called , and got the owner of this 'owner plus 2 techs + receptionist' size local computer repair company ..............the owner says 'it's 30 days warrantee on our set up and transfer over your stuff work'............ ( it was past 30 days of course ) ...........in other words...........the way I hear this as a consumer is ..... "I don't care that you just spent 950 with me for your new Dell Lap top, plus 300 more for a back up hard drive, plus 300 more of our setting it up work, it's over 30 days,. you're screwed."

Man was that upsetting. So I had them do some more work, and it wasn't too expensive.........and things were sorta OK for a while,.........but then I had some more issues it was feeling like.............I pay, it works a while, then it doesn't , then to get them to do anything, I have to pay them more............ exactly the awful cycle many people have been in with car shops. So when the hard drive blew out, I got a new hard drive from Dell.......... and then I set the whole thing up myself. And during this process........... get this ..............this is how much what 'real service ' is.......how much what that is MISSING from 98 % of shops and people in the repair business is..............I just couldn't get the back up hard drive to copy files. I talked to everyone for hours, Dell, Seagate etc. Finally Robert my favorite tech at this computer repair shop tells me 'oh, we put our own proprietary program on that, you have to bring it in so we can make that work again '.......... so they put a private secret thing on my computer and NEVER TOLD ME ! and when they KNEW I would need a new hard drive soon, , they never said 'when you get your new drive, bring it in so we can set up this one little thing'.......They cost me a half day at least of calling people trying to figure this one thing out, when they had the info, and should have told me way, way back, in the beginning. 'btw, we put this special thing on your computer about the external back-up, if it needs attention you'll have to bring it in to us." ( btw, people call me often about engine conversion work they've had done...........and the shop left some system off, but does the shop tell the customer , the one paying the big bucks , that they did that ? .........no. )

'REAL SERVICE' is FLAT MISSING from many repair businesses, it sure appears too often. And of course that 'real service' thing is what I go to great lengths to provide in my vanagon repair, restoration, engine conversions, and used parts service.........

What I say is .............."People don't actually mind if it's expensive- but THEY WANT TO GET WHAT THEY PAID FOR." ( and obviously what they are paying for it the right thing fixed right, with perfect workmanship, and fair value )

I sure didn't get that very much with that computer repair store, so now..............with my computer............I DO IT ALL MYSELF...........and most of the time, sadly, the only technician you can REALLY REALLY trust........to get every fastener tight, to do exactly the right thing, not get greasy fingerprints on things, etc. .........and all that ............is yourself.

anyway........'I tried' ....I tried to invest good money and get good service............and what I had to do in the end, is do it myself in order to get it done right, and to not just keep paying and paying.

May all vanagon technicians be brilliant, do perfect work, and workmanship, and deliver great value . Seeking 'everybodywins' - Always. Scott www.turbovans.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Alcock" <doug.alcock@GMAIL.COM> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 10:01 AM Subject: Re: Are Today's Young People Mechanical Nitwits?

> Great post Loren --- I'm a big Robert Heinlein fan too --- my Dad was > born > on a dirt farm in the Great Depression and was educated as an emgineer --- > the combination of the 2 meant that there was nothing that couldn't be > fixed > or made --- and I learned a that at his side while 'holding this here' and > 'ok give me the sidecutters' --- also learned beside my grandfather farmer > who could and did fix anything --- usually with bits and pieces from the > junk pile beside the tool shed. Sad thing is that I learned very little > about cars and engines --- but the 'can do' attitude I learned has helped > me > to learn a whole bunch --- with the help of this list over almost 10 > years. > As far as I'm concerned it's more an attitude than anything else. I expect > myself to fix and understand anything that's broken --- my kids go > instantly > to 'buy a new one'. Great thread -- and I'm astonished how long it has > gotten --- but I'm not making it any shorter am I. > > Cheers, > Doug > > > On 8/15/08, Loren Busch <starwagen@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> This got very long, hit delete if in a hurry this morning.... >> >> I've been following this thread (that started yesterday) with great >> interest. I decided to wait till Friday to jump in because of the little >> Vanagon content but don't take that wrong, I think the subject and the >> thread that has evolved is pertinent to our interests and endeavors. >> >> So, why can some of us understand the working of a motor vehicle and >> even >> work on them while others don't and can't? I think just about everything >> that I understand about the past (I just turned 69) and the current >> society >> and maybe even the future has already been said in this thread by the >> time >> I'm writing this. But I want to emphasize several points that have been >> made, especially about how our fathers and grandfathers saw things and >> dealt >> with them and how that affects us today. >> >> The fathers and the grandfathers of many on this list were raised in what >> was essentially a rural America, either on a farm or in a farm town and >> community. Especially in the West. And they had lived through the Great >> Depression where you only survived if you could do it yourself and they >> came >> out of the depression with a strong sense of how important every penny >> could >> be. Before WW2 the majority of the population of the US was not in the >> cities, it was rural. There were no 'suburbs', especially out West. And >> that meant you did it yourself. That's the way people survived. And >> when >> it came to motor vehicles we were talking Ford and Chevy and John >> Deere. And >> they were very basic machines. The major (and I mean major) improvements >> in >> wheels, tires, suspension, steering, engines and transmissions were >> things >> of the '50's and later. A couple of years ago I walked into a friends >> auto >> repair shop and there sat a '39 Pontiac (I believe it was a Pontiac, >> could >> have been a Packard, not important) that my friend maintained for a local >> collector. Front suspension was King Pins, no ball joints, leaf springs >> and >> no shock absorbers!! And a flat head straight 8 under the hood. Since >> virtually every male had grown up with tools in his hands maintaining >> such >> vehicles was second nature to the original owners. Now move ahead nearly >> 70 >> years and think about the complexity of the vehicles today. But also >> think >> about what has been gained in performance and durability. Even in the >> 1960's a car with 50,000 miles on it was suspect but today we think >> nothing >> of driving vehicles with over 100,000 miles on them. And since I just >> mentioned the '60's, let me make some comments on the so called 'Golden >> Age' >> of the muscle car. In 1968 I spent most of that year selling cars for a >> Chrysler-Plymouth (RIP) dealer. I had a chance to drive, at least once, >> virtually every muscle car of the time. They had power but they were, in >> general, pigs to drive. Sure they could do 120 mph on the straight but >> for >> God sake don't try to go around a curve at 60 or even change lanes above >> 80. >> The suspensions on virtually all were way, way under engineered for the >> power they had. For those that never had the experience imagine a >> Vanagon >> with worn shocks, factory springs and passenger tires. That's what most >> of >> those Muscle Cars felt like from the factory. >> >> When I was growing up most of the fathers in the neighborhood (good >> upscale >> middle class) were in the 'trades' one way or another. If they weren't >> carpenters or plumbers or such they had been at one time in their lives >> and >> had moved on to a related job. They either used tools for a living or >> their >> customers and clients did. My father was a machinist, all his life. I >> grew >> up in a machine shop, either where he worked or in our basement and >> garage. >> Big lathe, small mill, big drill press, welding equipment, and tools, >> tools, >> tools. The rule was simple, use the right tool for the job. If you don't >> have the right tool, make it. Only if you don't have it or can't make it >> do >> you go out and buy it (see references above to Great Depression and >> living >> on a farm) but, my dad hated woodwork. I don't know why but he hated >> doing >> any carpentry. I guess I inherited (or got by osmosis) his mechanical >> skills. If it's mechanical I've never been afraid of it. Especially if >> made of metal. When younger I'd tackle anything, tear it down, fix it, >> and >> put it back together. And that included my cars. But then I reached a >> point >> in later life where I was able to make a trade, my money for a mechanics >> time. My time with my family was worth more to me than having those >> dollars >> in my pocket. So I quit doing my own wrenching. And that is the decision >> that many in the last couple of generations have made. In the quite >> affluent society that has evolved in the US over the last 50 years fewer >> and >> fewer people have fathers that take a tool box to work. And the trade of >> dollars for time has become the norm; we go to specialists for most >> things >> today. I still do the basics and have done a lot of mods to my Westy but >> any >> real work goes to a mechanic. And yes, I pay close attention to Larry >> Chases Repair Shop Reviews. >> >> So, should the younger generation learn how a motor vehicle works? >> Absolutely. Should they understand the basics of maintenance? >> Absolutely. Should >> they learn to use basic tools? Yes, yes yes. Should they be doing engine >> swaps? Now that is another level of involvement, a choice to be made by >> the >> individual. But they should have enough knowledge to understand what is >> involved. >> >> >> >> The quote below sums it up for me, from the famous Lazarus Long (though >> we >> should add "Troubleshoot a Vanagon FI System" to the list.) >> >> >> >> A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, >> butcher >> a >> hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, >> build >> a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, >> cooperate, >> act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program >> a >> computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. >> Specialization is for insects. >> > > > > -- > http://www.dougalcock.com


Back to: Top of message | Previous page | Main VANAGON page

Please note - During the past 17 years of operation, several gigabytes of Vanagon mail messages have been archived. Searching the entire collection will take up to five minutes to complete. Please be patient!


Return to the archives @ gerry.vanagon.com


The vanagon mailing list archives are copyright (c) 1994-2011, and may not be reproduced without the express written permission of the list administrators. Posting messages to this mailing list grants a license to the mailing list administrators to reproduce the message in a compilation, either printed or electronic. All compilations will be not-for-profit, with any excess proceeds going to the Vanagon mailing list.

Any profits from list compilations go exclusively towards the management and operation of the Vanagon mailing list and vanagon mailing list web site.