Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 21:27:10 -0700
Reply-To: Andrew Grebneff <goose1047@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Andrew Grebneff <goose1047@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Making of a Vanagon - Now New T3: Remaking of the Vanagon
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On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 2:18 PM, B Feddish <bfeddish@netreach.net> wrote:
> Sure, it's fun to talk about VW building the Vanagon again but that is absolutely impossible. First, the production of the Vanagon > uses 1970's technology that involves a huge amount of labor.
Actually, the T3 was largely built by robots, as the videos show; what
wasn't robot-done eg handling metal at the stamps would easily be done
so. 70s technology... so what? Metal stamps are still metal stamps;
castings are still castings. Like Toyota's Hiace, the body is modular,
for ease of making different versions on the same line. The engine and
drivetrain would be modern, as would the electrics (the latter best
farmed-out to Mitsubishi, for both design & manufacture). It could
also easily be made in say 3 different wheelbases, again like the
superceded gen-3 & 4 (83-04) Hiaces.
>The cost of the vehicle would be astronomical.
It wouldn't be cheap, but no van is cheap, especially when compared to
a sedan or purpose-built (and oh-so-flawed) MPV (multiperson vehicle).
The biggest cost would be in setting-up: transporting and housing the
tooling and lines.
> Next, who is going to buy it? The same people who did
> NOT buy it in the 80's? If it was still successful VW would still sell it.
It was successful, and people would still buy it. If it was offered in
longer-wheelbase versions there would be buyers who would not normally
buy one (as it was it was equivalent to a midwheelbase Japanese big
van eg Hiace or Caravan/Urvan/Homy). And if it had a modern drivetrain
and performed well MPV-buyers would go for it, those who would
otherwise buy a Sienna, Dodgy Voyeur etc.
Options not actually offered could be realized: short and long
wheelbases, flat-floor versions (like the Japanese offer),
cab-chassis, triplecab pickup, cab-chassis or flatbed (as offered in
the Toyota Dyna) and other possibilities. Hell, they could follow
Toyota's lead and make a wide-body as well.
They could use a top-quality suspension (no American-market low-grade
one) and even offer a competition suspension and drivetrains, possibly
sold as a Porsche... how about a T3 racing class?
> And c'mon now, if an '09 Vanagon appeared at a dealer tomorrow for what
> would probably be $40K+ how many of us current Vanagon owners would run out
> and get one? Sorry, I don't see allot of hands up from this crowd, me
> included, who debate whether to get the $100 or the $125 replacement
> muffler.
Not everyone is poor or a pennypincher. If I could afford such a van
I'd seriously consider one (the only other choice for me would be a
Hiace).
> I'd love to see the T5 sold here but that's not going to happen either. The
> Eurovan is hands down a much more modern van and much more comfortable to
> drive than the Vanagon.
The T5 is just another generic Eurojunk front-engined van, and
absolutely no fun to drive... not designed to handle, unlike the T3,
and with the front-engined van's fatal flaw of exterior bulk instead
of cargo-bay capacity. Might as well buy an American van, Ford
Transit, Fiat Ducato, Renault whatever. Low-tech stuff, made to do a
job and NO MORE. Don't even mention the Mercedes Vito.
> I agree with not having to have 500 different models of crap being sold. However, as Vanagon and VW enthusiasts we are a relative minority of car buyers. Look at what has been selling over the past decade....mini vans, SUVs, Pick up trucks, Hummers, etc. Even the Japanese, Koreans and Germans got into the SUV game because that is what sells. Detroit and the rest of the world pushed them on us because the profit margins on these vehicles are higher than the profit margins on most small (at least the big 3) cars.
Outside the US MPV vans remain extremely popular. Hiaces everywhere.
Of they are available they will sell. And a safety advertising
campaign for the T3 would be a big help for those who don't believe
that forward-control vans are good in head-ons.
> Over the past few days I've noticed figures of $35K to $50K battered around for a "new" T3. Assuming one picked up a restorable T3 for $5k, $30K+ would sure as pay for the restoration of one hell of a "new" T3. BTW, the T5 Camper version is approximately $55K Euros. Also, there are a number of Sprinter camper conversions floating around for $45K or more. In some ways the Sprinter is more akin to the "new" T3 that we speak of. Diesel power and economy, etc.
>
> Speaking of diesel power, I saw a picture of a T3 with its engine compartment stuffed full with an AUDI V6 TDI...now THAT would be a neat conversion!
Diesel's one single advantage is in relatively low fuel-consumption.
This is negated in some countries by high cost of diesel fuel.
So-called "biodiesel" (ALL petroleum fuels are biofuels!) is not
viable ecologically, despite the arguments by some. Also diesels
generally need more frequent servicing and most are not happy with
poor maintenance; the vast majority of turbodiesels are not reliable
and nobody seems to make atmo diesels these days, even the Japanese.
But there's a huge range of engine designs and layouts possible for
the T3.
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Matt Drew <t3vanagon@gmail.com> wrote:
> Naysayers aside, I think that this all comes down to one thing: PASSION
>
> We're all passionate about our Vanagons, in part because of the inherent
> practical nature of the vehicles and that fact that they are just plain FUN!
Indeed! But not only enthusiasts buy such vans. The body is tough and
space-efficient (and with a properly-designed "flat" engine and
management system the hump in the rear floor could be removed from the
design, allowing it to compete on a level field with the Japanese
vans).
> That being said, what's to stop us from doing everything we can to petition
> VW to at least entertain a limited-time run of the Vanagon?
A limited run wouldn't even be considered, as the tooling is all packed away.
> What would it hurt to try?
> Just doing it in the first place is feeding into our passion, and - could be
> a lot of fun!!!!
>
> We gonna do this, or what?
I think we should!
Approach Porsche, ol' Piech and anyone over there in power with an
enthusiast bent.
--
Andrew Grebneff
Dunedin, New Zealand
Fossil preparator
Mollusc, Toyota & VW van nut
Temporarily in Calgary, AB, Canada
<goose1047@gmail.com>
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