Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 20:45:20 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Making of a Vanagon - Now New T3: Remaking of the Vanagon
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well I'm glad at least one other person doesn't think diesel are 'really it'
..........
I identified a couple of other advantages besides less fuel consumption-
less fire danger, for one.
But those things cost more to get in the first place, and have higher repair
costs when they need serious repairs, like rebuilding injection pumps for
example.
and if Porsche made our T3 .........it might cost a bit much !
Porsche's idea of an entry level car, a small car at that, is around 40
large.
but sure............they could do it !
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Grebneff" <goose1047@GMAIL.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: Making of a Vanagon - Now New T3: Remaking of the Vanagon
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 2:18 PM, B Feddish <bfeddish@netreach.net> wrote:
>> Sure, it's fun to talk about VW building the Vanagon again but that is
>> absolutely impossible. First, the production of the Vanagon > uses 1970's
>> technology that involves a huge amount of labor.
>
> Actually, the T3 was largely built by robots, as the videos show; what
> wasn't robot-done eg handling metal at the stamps would easily be done
> so. 70s technology... so what? Metal stamps are still metal stamps;
> castings are still castings. Like Toyota's Hiace, the body is modular,
> for ease of making different versions on the same line. The engine and
> drivetrain would be modern, as would the electrics (the latter best
> farmed-out to Mitsubishi, for both design & manufacture). It could
> also easily be made in say 3 different wheelbases, again like the
> superceded gen-3 & 4 (83-04) Hiaces.
>
>>The cost of the vehicle would be astronomical.
>
> It wouldn't be cheap, but no van is cheap, especially when compared to
> a sedan or purpose-built (and oh-so-flawed) MPV (multiperson vehicle).
> The biggest cost would be in setting-up: transporting and housing the
> tooling and lines.
>
>> Next, who is going to buy it? The same people who did
>> NOT buy it in the 80's? If it was still successful VW would still sell
>> it.
>
> It was successful, and people would still buy it. If it was offered in
> longer-wheelbase versions there would be buyers who would not normally
> buy one (as it was it was equivalent to a midwheelbase Japanese big
> van eg Hiace or Caravan/Urvan/Homy). And if it had a modern drivetrain
> and performed well MPV-buyers would go for it, those who would
> otherwise buy a Sienna, Dodgy Voyeur etc.
>
> Options not actually offered could be realized: short and long
> wheelbases, flat-floor versions (like the Japanese offer),
> cab-chassis, triplecab pickup, cab-chassis or flatbed (as offered in
> the Toyota Dyna) and other possibilities. Hell, they could follow
> Toyota's lead and make a wide-body as well.
>
> They could use a top-quality suspension (no American-market low-grade
> one) and even offer a competition suspension and drivetrains, possibly
> sold as a Porsche... how about a T3 racing class?
>
>> And c'mon now, if an '09 Vanagon appeared at a dealer tomorrow for what
>> would probably be $40K+ how many of us current Vanagon owners would run
>> out
>> and get one? Sorry, I don't see allot of hands up from this crowd, me
>> included, who debate whether to get the $100 or the $125 replacement
>> muffler.
>
> Not everyone is poor or a pennypincher. If I could afford such a van
> I'd seriously consider one (the only other choice for me would be a
> Hiace).
>
>> I'd love to see the T5 sold here but that's not going to happen either.
>> The
>> Eurovan is hands down a much more modern van and much more comfortable to
>> drive than the Vanagon.
>
> The T5 is just another generic Eurojunk front-engined van, and
> absolutely no fun to drive... not designed to handle, unlike the T3,
> and with the front-engined van's fatal flaw of exterior bulk instead
> of cargo-bay capacity. Might as well buy an American van, Ford
> Transit, Fiat Ducato, Renault whatever. Low-tech stuff, made to do a
> job and NO MORE. Don't even mention the Mercedes Vito.
>
>> I agree with not having to have 500 different models of crap being sold.
>> However, as Vanagon and VW enthusiasts we are a relative minority of car
>> buyers. Look at what has been selling over the past decade....mini vans,
>> SUVs, Pick up trucks, Hummers, etc. Even the Japanese, Koreans and
>> Germans got into the SUV game because that is what sells. Detroit and the
>> rest of the world pushed them on us because the profit margins on these
>> vehicles are higher than the profit margins on most small (at least the
>> big 3) cars.
>
> Outside the US MPV vans remain extremely popular. Hiaces everywhere.
> Of they are available they will sell. And a safety advertising
> campaign for the T3 would be a big help for those who don't believe
> that forward-control vans are good in head-ons.
>
>> Over the past few days I've noticed figures of $35K to $50K battered
>> around for a "new" T3. Assuming one picked up a restorable T3 for $5k,
>> $30K+ would sure as pay for the restoration of one hell of a "new" T3.
>> BTW, the T5 Camper version is approximately $55K Euros. Also, there are a
>> number of Sprinter camper conversions floating around for $45K or more.
>> In some ways the Sprinter is more akin to the "new" T3 that we speak of.
>> Diesel power and economy, etc.
>>
>> Speaking of diesel power, I saw a picture of a T3 with its engine
>> compartment stuffed full with an AUDI V6 TDI...now THAT would be a neat
>> conversion!
>
> Diesel's one single advantage is in relatively low fuel-consumption.
> This is negated in some countries by high cost of diesel fuel.
> So-called "biodiesel" (ALL petroleum fuels are biofuels!) is not
> viable ecologically, despite the arguments by some. Also diesels
> generally need more frequent servicing and most are not happy with
> poor maintenance; the vast majority of turbodiesels are not reliable
> and nobody seems to make atmo diesels these days, even the Japanese.
> But there's a huge range of engine designs and layouts possible for
> the T3.
>
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Matt Drew <t3vanagon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Naysayers aside, I think that this all comes down to one thing: PASSION
>>
>> We're all passionate about our Vanagons, in part because of the inherent
>> practical nature of the vehicles and that fact that they are just plain
>> FUN!
>
> Indeed! But not only enthusiasts buy such vans. The body is tough and
> space-efficient (and with a properly-designed "flat" engine and
> management system the hump in the rear floor could be removed from the
> design, allowing it to compete on a level field with the Japanese
> vans).
>
>> That being said, what's to stop us from doing everything we can to
>> petition
>> VW to at least entertain a limited-time run of the Vanagon?
>
> A limited run wouldn't even be considered, as the tooling is all packed
> away.
>
>> What would it hurt to try?
>> Just doing it in the first place is feeding into our passion, and - could
>> be
>> a lot of fun!!!!
>>
>> We gonna do this, or what?
>
> I think we should!
>
> Approach Porsche, ol' Piech and anyone over there in power with an
> enthusiast bent.
>
> --
> Andrew Grebneff
> Dunedin, New Zealand
> Fossil preparator
> Mollusc, Toyota & VW van nut
> Temporarily in Calgary, AB, Canada
> <goose1047@gmail.com>
>
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