I think this list functions well because of the rules and not in spite of them. A person subscribes to read and comment on what is relevant to him. If you  start a group, and call it the anything goes list, then you can discuss anything there. But when members subscribe to this list, it's because of that one unique title: Vanagon.   What is assumed by some is that we are all like-minded because we own one. Really? Likeminded like the Libyans in the bus chase scene in BTTF?   It's a vehicle , it carries me, it carries terrorists,and it carries a lot of stuff.  A forum about it is a great idea. We all can come here to get technical info. Or, find out things I don't care to know, like where the Grateful Dead are playing.   And i suppose a heads up where a vendor has gone astray I can tolerate too, and hopefully i am not that vendor.   But then there are those who come because they see it as a community. And it is , but it's not like a real community. This is the phenomena of the internet.   I don't really care about the fluff- just the vanagon stuff. When my mail box becomes too filled with titles that i find annoying, it's usually because those titles have less to do with the focus of the forum and more with the focus of the indvidual. it is advertised by the very name , after all, the Vanagon list.   When the titles become too irrelevant to me, I become annoyed. I don't need to subscribe to something that disturbs me when I have neighbors next door who do this.     Some sites have multiple forums where you can discuss other topics. This is one of the more regulated forums, which is why I am still here after 10 years. Who wants to see flame wars and arguments ? We used to have some big ones in the old days.   The internet has connected people. I just contacted my guitar player i haven't seen or talked to over 30 years. You can find people . And you can find people who are like-minded in as much as they too bought the silly-looking box on wheels.   Some  say we are Vanagon -minded, well, if you mean I think about that starter which needs to be replaced but  I don't want to do it in the weather, yes.    I've never considered myself to be Vanagon-minded, as if after you buy a car it somehow takes over your life , and in the end, your mind.   No, it's just a box on wheels and I'm the only one in the neigborhood, like most of you, that own one-or 15.   What I am saying, is that I'm not Vanagon -minded! I own four of them. They may not have taken over my mind yet, but they have taken over my yard! Happy New Year!   Robert

  At 12:19 PM 1/3/2009, Allan Streib wrote: >I think lists like this are more than just knowledge resources, they are >a community of sorts and as such we need to allow (within reason) some >amount of more "social discussion".

'Zackly. This list has shown great discretion and wisdom in avoiding and quickly squashing political topics; in instantly ejecting the heater expert and unregenerate Nazi when he showed his colors; and in maintaining a civil tone. But in my experience over ten years or so it has always been a social list, not strictly a technical one, and I don't think the relative amount of "off-topic" posting has changed all that much over that time.

There has always been a certain tension between the folks who want a strictly focused and/or all-technical list, and those who like myself consider the list an avenue of friendship and contact among a like-minded community scattered across the country and to some extent around the world. I believe this tension has served the list well, keeping it to a middle path. I think that (judging by behavior) Ron Lussier and Tom Carrington were of similar mind, and that Jim Arnott, though restrained in his actions, was/is very much of the highly-focused philosophy, and trying to keep a middle road has taxed him severely.

I personally was dismayed by both the tone and content of the "charter" recently imposed, though I understand the frustration that led to it.

The subaruvanagon list is a good example of a highly focused list, and it works well. It is a technical list concerned with suby engine conversions into vanagons, and anything else is decidedly off-topic; and the line is sharply and consistently drawn by the moderator.

With this list it has been more the case that certain subjects are absolutely off-topic and forbidden, and then there is a sort of sliding scale that centers on Vanagons and slopes gradually off in all directions from there -- I think this is appropriate. Vanagons are largely a state of mind of Vanagon-minded people, and they tend to have other interests and values in common, so it's natural for them to befriend each other.

My two cents... David

-- David Beierl - Providence RI USA -- http://pws.prserv.net/synergy/Vanagon/ '84 Westy "Dutiful Passage," '85 GL "Poor Relation"