Vanagon EuroVan
Previous (more recent) messageNext (less recent) messagePrevious (more recent) in topicNext (less recent) in topicPrevious (more recent) by same authorNext (less recent) by same authorPrevious page (January 2009, week 1)Back to main VANAGON pageJoin or leave VANAGON (or change settings)ReplyPost a new messageSearchProportional fontNon-proportional font
Date:         Sat, 3 Jan 2009 12:22:43 -0800
Reply-To:     Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Subject:      The 'tone' of the list; was RE: List filtering thoughts
In-Reply-To:  <495fa961.1917400a.14ed.ffffea7d@mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

As I recall there was a lengthy thread on this subject two or three years ago; the predominant opinion then was that 'all tech and no social/community makes the list a dull place', so to speak. Several posters described experiences on lists that went hard-core technical and essentially died off shortly thereafter. I agree that the balance as it has been over the years is livable; when you have 800+ people in one room you have to expect and to some extent make allowances for a certain amount of predictable and normal human behavior, and the fringes tend to define the middle. The odd individuals taking it upon themselves to correct the behavior of the others according to their interpretation of 'the rules' tend to be more annoying than effective. On a practical level the NVC threads make no difference to me. For several years I read every post, saving many that I thought I'd need later; I'm a fast reader and I wanted to be sure I wasn't missing anything important. I don't own a camper and I probably never will but at this point I'd almost bet you I could rehab a Dometic or replace a pop-top from memory. Along the way I've picked up all kinds of non-Vanagon related information that turned out to be interesting or useful in other areas of my life. Reading this list every day is like being at University. Much of it is mundane but if you keep one eye open you never know what little nuggets one of the resident eggheads will turn up that will affect your thinking. The point is that I would selectively delete, but even with that 99% of the posts went into the can whether NVC or not, and the NVC posts have always been such a small percentage of the whole that, as I said, it never made any practical difference. These days I tend to skim and scan; I kind of feel like I've seen it all and more than once, but I'm still looking for the odd thing that jumps out at me. However I now delete every post, either on the spot or at the end of the month when I clean out my mailboxes. I have another account running on Gmail (as many of you do) that is archiving the posts for me. I think the list archives at this point are practically useless due to the likelihood of repeatedly timing out, and also because much of the information is dated. If you look back at some of the old posts you see repeated references to people, parts, procedures and companies that are no longer relevant due to the passage of time. With the seasonal cycling of topics on the list everything worthwhile gets repeated anyway, so to my mind the best information is from the present to three-to-five years back. 'Bandwidth' is something we should keep in mind as a courtesy to those on slower connections (this long post notwithstanding : / ), but as a concern as it relates to the archives I think it's rearranging deck chairs at this point. I sometimes marvel at the continued length and depth of, for example, Haynes' or Drillock's umpteenth post detailing the same technical procedures for the umpteenth time, but they keep at it. You'd think they'd save themselves some wear and tear and just write up a procedure paper and post it; I hope they at least cut-and-paste. On the other hand I think this list would be a much poorer place without the contributions of Unca Joel, or Joy, or John Rodgers; those whose posts are often less technical but that flesh out the list's 'personality', and put a more human voice to our machines and those that use and sometimes even live in them. I think ultimately lists such as this are held together more by the sense of relationships and community than by the function of utility; however for this list in particular I would say that technical utility is the skeleton upon which the flesh of community cleaves. Obviously without balance we are a either a structureless blob or a dried out pile of bones. The ebb and flow of human interaction will be what it will be and it's inevitable that occasionally the oddball situation will pop up, but for the most part I think we've done as good a job as could be expected at governing ourselves with minimal oversight.

Cya, Robert

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of David Beierl Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 10:07 AM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: List filtering thoughts

At 12:19 PM 1/3/2009, Allan Streib wrote: >I think lists like this are more than just knowledge resources, they are >a community of sorts and as such we need to allow (within reason) some >amount of more "social discussion".

'Zackly. This list has shown great discretion and wisdom in avoiding and quickly squashing political topics; in instantly ejecting the heater expert and unregenerate Nazi when he showed his colors; and in maintaining a civil tone. But in my experience over ten years or so it has always been a social list, not strictly a technical one, and I don't think the relative amount of "off-topic" posting has changed all that much over that time.

There has always been a certain tension between the folks who want a strictly focused and/or all-technical list, and those who like myself consider the list an avenue of friendship and contact among a like-minded community scattered across the country and to some extent around the world. I believe this tension has served the list well, keeping it to a middle path. I think that (judging by behavior) Ron Lussier and Tom Carrington were of similar mind, and that Jim Arnott, though restrained in his actions, was/is very much of the highly-focused philosophy, and trying to keep a middle road has taxed him severely.

I personally was dismayed by both the tone and content of the "charter" recently imposed, though I understand the frustration that led to it.

The subaruvanagon list is a good example of a highly focused list, and it works well. It is a technical list concerned with suby engine conversions into vanagons, and anything else is decidedly off-topic; and the line is sharply and consistently drawn by the moderator.

With this list it has been more the case that certain subjects are absolutely off-topic and forbidden, and then there is a sort of sliding scale that centers on Vanagons and slopes gradually off in all directions from there -- I think this is appropriate. Vanagons are largely a state of mind of Vanagon-minded people, and they tend to have other interests and values in common, so it's natural for them to befriend each other.

My two cents... David

-- David Beierl - Providence RI USA -- http://pws.prserv.net/synergy/Vanagon/ '84 Westy "Dutiful Passage," '85 GL "Poor Relation"


Back to: Top of message | Previous page | Main VANAGON page

Please note - During the past 17 years of operation, several gigabytes of Vanagon mail messages have been archived. Searching the entire collection will take up to five minutes to complete. Please be patient!


Return to the archives @ gerry.vanagon.com


The vanagon mailing list archives are copyright (c) 1994-2011, and may not be reproduced without the express written permission of the list administrators. Posting messages to this mailing list grants a license to the mailing list administrators to reproduce the message in a compilation, either printed or electronic. All compilations will be not-for-profit, with any excess proceeds going to the Vanagon mailing list.

Any profits from list compilations go exclusively towards the management and operation of the Vanagon mailing list and vanagon mailing list web site.