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Date:         Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:44:51 -0500
Reply-To:     pickle vanagon <greenvanagon@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         pickle vanagon <greenvanagon@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Vanagon List Moderator
Comments: To: Joy Hecht <hecht.joy@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To:  <6e95da690901140959r18c24c1an2c6cf656795584dd@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I really don't mean to be antagonistic, but I believe it is pretty clear that off-topic posts *are* banned. (See the vanagon list charter below). I don't think the fact that people had a conversation on the list a few weeks ago and "decided" otherwise amongst themselves changes anything. The list has nearly a thousand people on it. Did they all give their input?

In fact, I really don't think there is a reasonable way of trying to "change the rules". This list has been vanagon focused list, and has historically been moderated to keep it more or less so. I don't think that the totally off-topic posts from the last few weeks have any place here. If people want to start a list that allows talk on vanagons AND everything else, great! There's lots of easy and free ways to do that (google groups works well.) But, I have to say, I don't think you'll see lots of the old-timers whose input is really valuable signing up for a list where they're guaranteed to get less vanagon content and more junk. But really, why do messages about viruses or charities or anything else totally unrelated to vanagons need to be sent in a "vanagon-themed" environment? If you go to groups.google.com, you can do a search for a mailing list that perfectly suits the topic your posting about. (And the topic for this list is: vanagons!) Sure, when you have something you want to say, its nice to have an audience of a 1000. But that audience is here in part because they aren't supposed to be used that way by the list.

Just my 2 cents, Wes

----------BEGIN CHARTER-----------

This is the charter of the Vanagon List.

Welcome to the list!

You MUST READ this document and agree to abide by it if you want to stay on the list.

This list is only about Volkswagen T25 Transporters, Vanagons and Caravelles, model years 1980 through end of production. If you have an earlier bus, or a Eurovan, you are on the wrong list. For 1950-1967 buses, you will probably want Thom Fitzpatrick's vintagebus list. For 1968-1979 buses you'll be looking for the type2 list. Each can be found at their respective dot coms. For Eurovans, there is a Yahoogroup list.

To maintain this resource we use (at the time of this writing) a list administrator and a server admin. You can always get hold of the administrator by sending mail to vanagon-admin@gerry.vanagon.com.

To post a message to the list, send it to vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com.

gerry.vanagon.com is funded entirely by donations from list members. We do not run advertisements or endorse vendors. You will not be charged (or expected to hand over an obligatory donation) for any resource we provide, not ever.

This list has about a thousand people on it (yes!), and because of that we have to have some rules. This is how we maintain the value of the list as an information source.

______________________________ _________________________________________________ PRIORITY ONE RULES -- If you screw up here you'll be kicked off the list and quite possibly banned forever (we really mean it):

--Do not EVER post UNSUBSCRIBE messages to the list. Clear instructions for getting off of the list are printed in every single message the list server sends out. Every single one. If for some reason you are having trouble getting off of the list, send mail to the administrator on duty at vanagon-admin@gerry.vanagon.com

--Do not EVER post "TEST" messages to the list. Don't even think about doing this. If you are having trouble posting, send mail to the list administrator on duty at vanagon-admin@gerry.vanagon.com and they will help you.

--Do not EVER post virus warnings, or messages about important issues that you think should concern everybody in the world. Do not post messages unless they have legitimate Vanagon content. If you think the message you're sending is so important that the "Vanagon content" rule does not apply to you, that means that you should ==NOT== post it.

--Do not ever continue a thread that an administrator has "killed". This is fairly rare, but if an admin says, "please kill this thread," then do not post any more messages on that topic. This is how the admins keep marginal discussions from growing out of control.

--Do not harvest addresses. It is not appropriate to collect the personal email addresses of list members and send them bulk email about your event or "special offer". This is called "spamming" and if you do it you will be denounced throughout Usenet and all the VW mailing lists, banned from our listforever, and we will be talking to your ISP about having your service terminated.

--Do not use an auto-responder without unsubscribing from the list first. If your "out of the office" program starts trying to post messages to the list you will be removed.

--Do not use profanity on the list. This is not your high-school locker room.

_______________________________________________________________________________ PRIORITY TWO RULES -- If you screw up here you will be quietly "moderated", which means a list administrator will intercept and examine every message you try to post to the list. This can slow your messages by up to 48 hours:

--Don't post chatty messages. If it does not have legitimate Vanagon content, do not post it to the list. There should be a good reason that 1000 people will download your message. We do enforce the "no chat" rule consistently and it is the number one reason people get moderated.

--Don't post Friday subjects except on Friday. Historically, the content guidelines are looser on Friday, and that is the only day when it is appropriate to post messages on certain (marginal) subjects. However, even on Fridays posts should have Vanagon content.

_______________________________________________________________________________ ETIQUETTE AND LIST CULTURE --

--There is a mail size limit of 20,000 characters and we don't allow attachments. Do not try to post pictures, they won't get through.

--Please quote only for context. Do not quote other people's entire messages when replying. Especially do not include an entire digest when replying.

--Search the List Archive. In other words, consult the extensive resources available to you at gerry.vanagon.com before asking on the list. You will get more information faster that way. If you ask frequently asked questions (FAQs) or frequently annoying recurring threads (FARTS), people will be inclined to ignore you or become caustic.

--Vendors are welcome and encouraged to participate in the list--we've had several vendors who have been valued list members. Specific answers to specific queries about products and pricing are fine, but please avoid repeatedly posting advertisements. What we're looking for here is high information value for the listees. If we think you are merely spamming we will moderate you very quickly.

--Occasionally, a list member will have a problem with the performance of a vendor or with a private transaction gone bad. If you are having trouble with a vendor, do everything you reasonably can to resolve it WITH THE VENDOR before you bring it to the list. Do not ambush people. If you can't resolve it yourself, it is a valid topic for discussion on the list, but please stick to the facts of the vendor's product or performance. Flames are not appropriate EVEN IF you can prove you've been shafted.

--Try to write using conventional capitalization, syntax and spelling. It indicates respect for the reader, and intentionally ignoring these conventions indicates contempt.

_______________________________________________________________________________ PRIVACY POLICY

We detest spammers. We will not sell or share our subscriber lists no matter what the inducement. Our list server will not reveal the addresses of subscribers through automated commands. Our web site does not employ cookies.

We do log all web transactions and all mail transactions; this is done strictly for the sake of security. We do not keep track of your browsing habits. By subscribing to this list you have not consented to receive "promotional email" or any other such rubbish. In short, we will not spy on you, and if you have trusted us with your email address we will do our best to see that your trust is not betrayed.

_______________________________________________________________________________ LEGAL STUFF

1. This is not a moderated list. The administrator doesn't see the messages until you do, maybe later than you do, and because of the nature of this medium the administrator has no way of retracting messages from public view. Propagation is automatic; once you send a message, it's gonna go, and there's no way of stopping it.

2. Since that is true, the administrator cannot control what is posted to this list, and therefore disclaims any responsibility for the messages the list server propagates. If you post a message, you alone are responsible for it. If you don't like that, then don't post messages.

3. This list is distributed from a server located in the USA. By United States copyright law (and by treaty with many other countries), messages posted to this list are copyrighted with all rights reserved by their respective authors. The administrator of this list makes no claim to ownership of your messages and will not republish or sell them, and neither should anybody else.

However, cross posting is common on the Net whether it is authorized or not, and if you post a message to this list it will automatically be entered into at a publicly accessible online archive, where it will remain permanently. If you don't like the possibility of your words being cross-posted or archived, then don't post messages. ---------------------END CHARTER-------------

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Joy Hecht <hecht.joy@gmail.com> wrote:

> Didn't we have a really lengthy discussion of this exact issue around three > weeks ago, when Jim got exasperated and quit as moderator? And the > responses were overwhelmingly that people felt this was a community of > friends and folks wanted to allow some off-topic discussion? > > Now as one who posted last Friday one of the off-topic posts, I did forget > to emphasize that people should p-mail their replies, and in fact I think > no > one did. So my apologies for my share in the flood, particularly as it > continued well past Friday. Perhaps a very strong request that replies to > off-topic posts be made in p-mail might help? Especially when, like mine, > they are requests for irrelevant technical information. > > On the other hand, when the off-topic posts concern personal information > like baby or death announcements, I'd very much rather see all of it on the > list. That's what makes us a community of friends, that we care about > these > things! I do, at least. > > If the issue is not whether to ban off-topic posts (I thought we agreed not > to do that), but whether to have a moderator - well, how many people are > willing to moderate? I don't think we should vote for moderators based on > their position about off-topic posts, that's too indirect. We should come > to a consensus on off-topic posts (if somehow we didn't already do that), > and then see who's willing to moderate in a way that will reflect that > consensus. And if we really have a major surplus and they can't come to an > agreement among themselves about how to share the responsibility, then we > can think about choosing among them. But somehow I doubt that's likely. > > > Joy > > >


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