Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:44:51 -0500
Reply-To: pickle vanagon <greenvanagon@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: pickle vanagon <greenvanagon@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Vanagon List Moderator
In-Reply-To: <6e95da690901140959r18c24c1an2c6cf656795584dd@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I really don't mean to be antagonistic, but I believe it is pretty clear
that off-topic posts *are* banned. (See the vanagon list charter below). I
don't think the fact that people had a conversation on the list a few weeks
ago and "decided" otherwise amongst themselves changes anything. The list
has nearly a thousand people on it. Did they all give their input?
In fact, I really don't think there is a reasonable way of trying to "change
the rules". This list has been vanagon focused list, and has historically
been moderated to keep it more or less so. I don't think that the totally
off-topic posts from the last few weeks have any place here. If people want
to start a list that allows talk on vanagons AND everything else, great!
There's lots of easy and free ways to do that (google groups works well.)
But, I have to say, I don't think you'll see lots of the old-timers whose
input is really valuable signing up for a list where they're guaranteed to
get less vanagon content and more junk. But really, why do messages about
viruses or charities or anything else totally unrelated to vanagons need to
be sent in a "vanagon-themed" environment? If you go to groups.google.com,
you can do a search for a mailing list that perfectly suits the topic your
posting about. (And the topic for this list is: vanagons!) Sure, when you
have something you want to say, its nice to have an audience of a 1000. But
that audience is here in part because they aren't supposed to be used that
way by the list.
Just my 2 cents,
Wes
----------BEGIN CHARTER-----------
This is the charter of the Vanagon List.
Welcome to the list!
You MUST READ this document and agree to abide by it if you want to stay on
the list.
This list is only about Volkswagen T25 Transporters, Vanagons and
Caravelles,
model years 1980 through end of production. If you have an earlier bus, or a
Eurovan, you are on the wrong list. For 1950-1967 buses, you will probably
want
Thom Fitzpatrick's vintagebus list. For 1968-1979 buses you'll be looking
for the type2 list. Each can be found at their respective dot coms. For
Eurovans,
there is a Yahoogroup list.
To maintain this resource we use (at the time of this writing) a list
administrator and a server admin. You can always get hold of the
administrator
by sending mail to vanagon-admin@gerry.vanagon.com.
To post a message to the list, send it to vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com.
gerry.vanagon.com is funded entirely by donations from list members. We do
not
run advertisements or endorse vendors. You will not be charged (or expected
to
hand over an obligatory donation) for any resource we provide, not ever.
This list has about a thousand people on it (yes!), and because of that we
have to have some rules. This is how we maintain the value of the list as an
information source.
______________________________
_________________________________________________
PRIORITY ONE RULES -- If you screw up here you'll be kicked off the list and
quite possibly banned forever (we really mean it):
--Do not EVER post UNSUBSCRIBE messages to the list. Clear instructions for
getting off of the list are printed in every single message the list server
sends out. Every single one. If for some reason you are having trouble
getting
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vanagon-admin@gerry.vanagon.com
--Do not EVER post "TEST" messages to the list. Don't even think about doing
this. If you are having trouble posting, send mail to the list administrator
on duty at vanagon-admin@gerry.vanagon.com and they will help you.
--Do not EVER post virus warnings, or messages about important issues that
you
think should concern everybody in the world. Do not post messages unless
they
have legitimate Vanagon content. If you think the message you're sending is
so
important that the "Vanagon content" rule does not apply to you, that means
that
you should ==NOT== post it.
--Do not ever continue a thread that an administrator has "killed". This is
fairly rare, but if an admin says, "please kill this thread," then do not
post
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discussions from growing out of control.
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and we will be talking to your ISP about having your service terminated.
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your "out of the office" program starts trying to post messages to the list
you will be removed.
--Do not use profanity on the list. This is not your high-school locker
room.
_______________________________________________________________________________
PRIORITY TWO RULES -- If you screw up here you will be quietly "moderated",
which means a list administrator will intercept and examine every message
you
try to post to the list. This can slow your messages by up to 48 hours:
--Don't post chatty messages. If it does not have legitimate Vanagon
content,
do not post it to the list. There should be a good reason that 1000 people
will
download your message. We do enforce the "no chat" rule consistently and it
is
the number one reason people get moderated.
--Don't post Friday subjects except on Friday. Historically, the content
guidelines are looser on Friday, and that is the only day when it is
appropriate
to post messages on certain (marginal) subjects. However, even on Fridays
posts
should have Vanagon content.
_______________________________________________________________________________
ETIQUETTE AND LIST CULTURE --
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when replying. Especially do not include an entire digest when replying.
--Search the List Archive.
In other words, consult the extensive resources available to you at
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annoying recurring threads (FARTS), people will be inclined to ignore you or
become caustic.
--Vendors are welcome and encouraged to participate in the list--we've had
several vendors who have been valued list members. Specific answers to
specific
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posting
advertisements. What we're looking for here is high information value for
the
listees. If we think you are merely spamming we will moderate you very
quickly.
--Occasionally, a list member will have a problem with the performance of a
vendor or with a private transaction gone bad. If you are having trouble
with
a vendor, do everything you reasonably can to resolve it WITH THE VENDOR
before
you bring it to the list. Do not ambush people. If you can't resolve it
yourself,
it is a valid topic for discussion on the list, but please stick to the
facts of
the vendor's product or performance. Flames are not appropriate EVEN IF you
can
prove you've been shafted.
--Try to write using conventional capitalization, syntax and spelling. It
indicates respect for the reader, and intentionally ignoring these
conventions
indicates contempt.
_______________________________________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________________________________________
LEGAL STUFF
1. This is not a moderated list. The administrator doesn't see the messages
until you do, maybe later than you do, and because of the nature of this
medium
the administrator has no way of retracting messages from public view.
Propagation is automatic; once you send a message, it's gonna go, and
there's
no way of stopping it.
2. Since that is true, the administrator cannot control what is posted to
this
list, and therefore disclaims any responsibility for the messages the list
server propagates. If you post a message, you alone are responsible for it.
If
you don't like that, then don't post messages.
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States
copyright law (and by treaty with many other countries), messages posted to
this list are copyrighted with all rights reserved by their respective
authors.
The administrator of this list makes no claim to ownership of your messages
and
will not republish or sell them, and neither should anybody else.
However, cross posting is common on the Net whether it is authorized or not,
and if you post a message to this list it will automatically be entered into
at a publicly accessible online archive, where it will remain permanently.
If you
don't like the possibility of your words being cross-posted or archived,
then don't
post messages.
---------------------END CHARTER-------------
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Joy Hecht <hecht.joy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Didn't we have a really lengthy discussion of this exact issue around three
> weeks ago, when Jim got exasperated and quit as moderator? And the
> responses were overwhelmingly that people felt this was a community of
> friends and folks wanted to allow some off-topic discussion?
>
> Now as one who posted last Friday one of the off-topic posts, I did forget
> to emphasize that people should p-mail their replies, and in fact I think
> no
> one did. So my apologies for my share in the flood, particularly as it
> continued well past Friday. Perhaps a very strong request that replies to
> off-topic posts be made in p-mail might help? Especially when, like mine,
> they are requests for irrelevant technical information.
>
> On the other hand, when the off-topic posts concern personal information
> like baby or death announcements, I'd very much rather see all of it on the
> list. That's what makes us a community of friends, that we care about
> these
> things! I do, at least.
>
> If the issue is not whether to ban off-topic posts (I thought we agreed not
> to do that), but whether to have a moderator - well, how many people are
> willing to moderate? I don't think we should vote for moderators based on
> their position about off-topic posts, that's too indirect. We should come
> to a consensus on off-topic posts (if somehow we didn't already do that),
> and then see who's willing to moderate in a way that will reflect that
> consensus. And if we really have a major surplus and they can't come to an
> agreement among themselves about how to share the responsibility, then we
> can think about choosing among them. But somehow I doubt that's likely.
>
>
> Joy
>
>
>