Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:41:45 -0800
Reply-To: David Marshall <mailinglist@FASTFORWARD.CA>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: David Marshall <mailinglist@FASTFORWARD.CA>
Subject: Re: why would anyone want a diesel
In-Reply-To: <005101c98c91$68a12e70$6401a8c0@PROSPERITY>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hey Scott, putting engines in vehicles is just bad, two sides to both
coins -
see ####
David Marshall
VW Adventure
Driver and BMW Adventure Rider
http://www.hasenwerk.ca
On Wed, February 11, 2009 13:40, Scott Daniel - Turbovans
wrote:
>
> why would anyone want a diesel ( btdt )
.....
> except for the better fuel milage, they are costlier over
the long run to
> purchase, own, operate, and repair, or at least
'quite often' they are.
>
> typical example.......
> nice used geman -made AAZ went into a vanagon.......the
techician/owner
> took
> it to hawaii where he does rental
westy's.
> it was a darn tight and good AAZ too, only about 40,000
miles on it. Ran
> perfect.
> He spent.......you
know........about 5 grand on that conversion, perhaps a
> bit
more. Twice what the westy he put it in cost.
#### Not a
typical example, most people put in TDIs 'cause they are better than the
AAZ engine and cost about the same amount to install.
> got about a good year and a half out of it.
>
The engine 'overheated' or somehow failed with a rental customer
driving
> it.
> I asked him about it just last night even
...........the head is completey
> trashed.
> he put a
waterboxer back in.
#### In other words the person who was
driving it kept on driving it and killed it... not the Diesel's fault.
> diesel engines can do harm to themselvses in ways that
gasoline engines
> can't ........like a bad injector causing
damage in a combustion chamber.
> They depend on the condition of
the engine itself to create
> combustion........if that gets a
little weak.........and you don't get
> complete combustion.
> they are an interferece design and have a critical timing
belt.....
> and a few other things .......
#### Bad
gasoline injectors can do the same thing to a gasser engine. Poor
mixture can burn valves, bad timing will grenade the engine as well too...
most if not all modern gasoline engines are also interference design so
the same argument is true with a gasoline engine.
> I'll
build 'em , or sell 'em .........but I'm tellin' ya ..........'a good
> portion of the time' they are not cheaper to purchase, operate,
repair,
> and
> own, even if they do get 30 to 40 %
better fuel economy on more expensive
> fuel.
> They do
have great low end torque though,
> and you can run plant-based
fuels, yes.....no argument there.
#### With todays' fuel prices
it costs the same to run a gasser and a Diesel. You get 30% better
fuel economy but in a lot of places you pay 30% more for the fuel.
Here in BC it is 84.9 for gasoline and 91.9 for Diesel so the spread isn't
quite so much.
> and sometimes they have a nasty habbit of
smoking, smelling, and rattling
> and vibarating.
####
All those can be said about a gasoline engine that isn't running correctly
too.
> put it this way ...........
> they do not
make good 'old' engines. They make good expensive new engines.
#### I can't agree more
> the subaru diesel may have some
'not vanagon' friendly
> characteristics.........like CAN BUS
electronics,
> and a too low turbo location for syncro's and off
road use.........but
> turbo's can be moved too. They're only 2
liters also.
>
> but it's all fun, and I think mainly the
real 'thrill' of diesel is
> 'being
> different' than the
masses. I 'did vanagon diesel about 8 years btw )
> And I won't
argue with good low end torque.......you got me there for sure
>
!
> ...particularily in TDI's.
>
> your crazy
freind.
>
> ( and I won't even mention a guy I know with
a 2004 tdi jetta.......
> had an injection pump rebuid that cost
about $ 2,000 ........a part that a
> fuel injected gasoline
doesn't even have...........then it cost about
> another $ 900 to
get another shop to really dial in the timing belt and
> timing
exactly right. Ain't no ecomomy there Martha ! )
#### Let's
step back a second here and look at everything for a second.
First off - people replace the wasserboxer for "insert your
favorite engine here" because the wasserboxer is broken or otherwise
not making them happy. I think to get a wasserboxer rebuilt
"right" is going to cost you 3 to 4K if memory serves me
correctly. This is for a good rebuild and typically that motor will
almost always fail sooner especially if someone didn't fit it right.
For example just fixing the leaking head gasket with a reman head and
doing nothing else is just asking for trouble. Reman heads are
trouble... the motor is really just trouble. So really unless you
want to do a patch job, not worth it.
Second. The
wasserboxer is only 117ft.lbs of torque. Good for the old days of 55
MPH but not good for keeping up with the Jone's in their Range Rover or
other modern day mega buck car... heck they can't even keep up with a
Dodge Caravan.
Third - Wasserboxers need more fuel
Fourth - Wasserboxers pollute more
Really the wbx is
not an engine suited for the year 2010 and beyond. Once we establish
that we need to look at other alternatives. Subi 2.5s - more I read
about these they leak water - the 2.2 is a much better motor for
that. Diesels - cost more to operate than say a small displacement
turbo gasser. Small displacement turbo gassers in a heavy vehilce
like the Vanagon take just as much fuel as the Vanagon and you have other
maitenance like a turbo that has to work more etc.
No matter
how you slice it and no matter what you put in there, that engine is going
to be a problem for you. Best way to get rid of that problem
is start with a new or very close to new engine which means spending bucks
to do it right. The problem is that most people who own Vanagons
don't have that kind of money so they go back into the same pitfalls.
My reason for choosing Diesel... power, sound, alternative green
house gas neutral fuels, if I choose to burn fossil fuels there is less
carbon per kilometer than a gasoline powered vehicle. My 2nd choice
would be a VW 1.8T
