Date:         Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:18:03 -0800
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Replacing FI with Carbs on WBX 2.1L
Comments: To: Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250";
              reply-type=original

Good electronic fuel injection just can not be beat ........for cold
drivability, emissions, good drivability etc.  A carb is always a crude and
mechanical compromise device. Electronics trump mechanics every time. You
can see it throughout  automotive development - electronic ignition
replacing points, distrbutorless ignition systems replaceing ones with
distrubutors , etc. etc.
  There was the electronic feed back carb..........for a few years, That
sure didn't last............replaced by EFI.

The EFI system on waterboxers is quite crude btw........compared to more
modern stuff.
Any good system with an Air Mass Meter instead of an Air flow Meter ( a
place where something mechanical interfaces with electrons .........which is
ALWAYS a weakness ) ..................Subaru and say, Volvo with air mass
meter.......is always a more reliable and consistent system.
Subaru EFI ...........
makes waterboxer EFI look like lawn mower technology.
The Subaru system is sequential, has cam and crank sensors , and knock
sensor ignition........makes the wbxr EFI and ignition system look silly.
"Distriubutor' ........what's that ??   - some old fashioned thing the 80's.

Not finding the time, but I have a plan in the back of my mind to fit Subaru
EFI to a vanagon waterboxer engine........
but it would be even easier to do 1988 740 Volvo inline four EFI with air
mass meter to a waterboxer........no cam or crank sensors on that system,
but has a air mass meter.  If I just happen to stumble onto a non-turbo
volvo 740 system in a junkyard ...............hmmmm........get rid of that
hokey air flow meter, though they hang in there fairly well, most of the
time.

'new type of carb'...........I'd like to hear more about that.  If there is
some way to get beyond the float bowl and float concept in
carbs...........perhaps something better than the traditional carb can be
done.
What fun.
Scott


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Hargrave" <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: Replacing FI with Carbs on WBX 2.1L


> There is no carburetor that will come close to a FI system, even a FI
> system
> from the late 80s. A good FI system keeps your fuel mixture very close to
> a
> perfect 14.5:1. A carburetor can't do this across all RPM ranges. But this
> does not keep people from switching.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm an old carburetor guy and I love working on them.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> 256-656-1924
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf Of
> John Rodgers
> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:36 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Replacing FI with Carbs on WBX 2.1L
>
> I've seen mention of this a time or two, and wondered of any advantages.
> No experience to compare, so wondering what others have done, and what
> was the outcome. I have a project in mind, and FI is of no advantage in
> the application. I've got a basket case engine I'm sot of interested in
> building up as a test bed for a new kind of carburetor that may
> adequately compete with FI, of maybe even better it. Part of an ongoing
> mileage quest. The idea is not so much to make the newest and greatest
> and most efficient new car, but to make old cars more efficient -
> because if fuel ramps up again, there is going to be a lot of old cars
> resurrected from the bone yards because the new ones are going to cost
> so much as we switch over to electric or green or both.
>
> Anyone notice that fuel prices are climbing again - not so fast, but
> rising none the less. Makes me nervous.
>
> John Rodgers
> 88 Gl Driver
>
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