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Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 2009 16:05:56 -0500
Reply-To:     Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Trying To Understand Tie rod Adjustments
Comments: To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <019001c9bbaf$44041940$6401a8c0@PROSPERITY>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250"

Sure.

You may get it close enough by hand to drive & may not even notice any alignment issue, but tire wear after 10K miles will "tell all".

Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com http://www.kegkits.com/JABF/ 256-656-1924

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf Of Scott Daniel - Turbovans Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 3:43 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: Trying To Understand Tie rod Adjustments

care to wager ?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Hargrave" <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 1:22 PM Subject: Re: Trying To Understand Tie rod Adjustments

> Scott, > > I understand - I've done enough backyard alignments. I'd never do one for > real road use - it's just not possible to get close enough. > > Thanks, > Tom Hargrave > www.kegkits.com > http://www.kegkits.com/JABF/ > 256-656-1924 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans [mailto:scottdaniel@turbovans.com] > Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 3:17 PM > To: Tom Hargrave; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: Re: Trying To Understand Tie rod Adjustments > > right........ > but we're not talking about 'on a rack at the alignment shop' are we ? > > We're talking about back yard............shade trees mechanicin' > ............... > > and........I'm curious - is Neil's goal to get it good enough to drive to > an > > alignment shop, > or get it good enough for real road use ? > I get them quite good with just back yard methods. .. > and ................( on no ! ) no centerline reference point. > > ok.......trivia question....... > name a mass-produced four door hatchback car from a Euupean car company > ..... > with a wheel base that is shorter by a solid 3 inches or so on the right > side, than on the left side . > ( and if you tweak the torsion bar preloads incorrectly......you can get > oversteer turning one direction, > and understeer turning the other direction - lots of fun ) . > > Scott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Hargrave" <thargrav@hiwaay.net> > To: "'Scott Daniel - Turbovans'" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>; > <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> > Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 1:06 PM > Subject: RE: Trying To Understand Tie rod Adjustments > > >> Actually, there is a center line, or more correctly, a center plane - it >> is >> calculated by the machine when the car is put on the alignment rack. >> Consider the center plane a vertical wall that goes straight through the >> vehicle from front to back and it is at a perfect right angle to the >> rack. >> >> All alignment measurements are referencing this center plane. >> >> Thanks, >> Tom Hargrave >> www.kegkits.com >> http://www.kegkits.com/JABF/ >> 256-656-1924 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf >> Of >> Scott Daniel - Turbovans >> Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 2:42 PM >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >> Subject: Re: Trying To Understand Tie rod Adjustments >> >> all right ....... >> I'm getting what's going on perhaps ....... >> Neil for your thinking ........IF there was a 'center line' in the middle >> of >> the van , that you measured toe from for each front wheel....... >> that would make perfect sense......but there isn't. >> >> the 'physical point' you measure from is .........each front wheel >> relative >> to the other. >> you measure between the front and rear edges to get the toe reading. >> ( which is why I wrote that 'it balances out' ...........like if you >> start >> out with the left wheel at zero toe, and the right one toed out say a >> half >> inch .........as soon as you drive 6 feet.........they'll balance out ( >> and >> the steering wheel will move left some in this case ) ........ >> so you'll be driving down the road.........going straight, and with a >> half >> inch of toe out , measured from wheel to wheel in front. >> >> here's how I measure toe...... >> suspension must be settled of course. >> using two yard sticks..........measure the distance between the two front >> wheels.........as close to the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions as you >> can >> get. >> I measure on the tire itself...........on a smooth spot , like no letters >> or >> bumps. >> Measuring on the wheel rim is OK.........but, the further you get from >> the >> center of the wheel, the more accurate your measurements will be. >> >> supposing you had a 10 foot long 2 X 4 mounted on each spindle perfectly >> .....so that they extended 5 feet for and aft from each spindle. >> then you measure toe by comparing the distance between the two ends of >> the > >> 2 >> X 4's way out in front...... >> then at the rear of the 2 X 4's .......this of course would be far more >> accurate, since the 2 X 4's magnify things. >> >> but that's not too practical. >> I just measure at the tires.......from side to side..........at the front >> of >> the tires, and at the rear...... >> aiming for about 1/16ths to 1/8th inch toe in, measured at the tires. >> >> hope this helps some !~ >> Scott >> www.turbovans.com >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "neil N" <musomuso@gmail.com> >> To: "Scott Daniel - Turbovans" <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> >> Cc: <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com> >> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 11:29 PM >> Subject: Re: Trying To Understand Tie rod Adjustments >> >> >>> 2009/4/11 Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>: >>>> I meant to also say ..... >>>> for a base steering wheel being centered place to start - >>>> remove the key, and let the steering lock with the steering wheel >>>> centered. >>>> then try to get toe and camber right , >>>> and i ... >>> >>> >>> Thanks Tom and Scott. >>> >>> I'm starting to understand more. And I was right in thinking that a >>> wheel could be toed in or out independantly of the other. So with that >>> in mind.... >>> >>> A point of confusion remains. (and this may not be the problem, but I >>> suspect it is due to swap of a tie rod) >>> >>> Let's way the left wheel is 0 toe, but the right wheel is x degrees >>> toe out. How do I get the right wheel to 0 so I can set the correct >>> amount of toe in? i.e. what physical point do I measure from to set >>> the toed out wheel straight? >>> >>> Neil. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Neil Nicholson '81 VanaJetta 2.0 "Jaco" >>> >>> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/ >>> >>> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engine >> s >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.53/2054 - Release Date: >> 4/11/2009 >> 10:51 AM >> >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.53/2054 - Release Date: >> 4/11/2009 >> 10:51 AM >> >> > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.53/2054 - Release Date: > 4/11/2009 > 10:51 AM > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.53/2054 - Release Date: > 4/11/2009 > 10:51 AM

No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.53/2054 - Release Date: 4/11/2009 10:51 AM

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