Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 14:12:22 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: Trying To Understand Tie rod Adjustments
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re
If I-wheel 0*, R-wheel toe out, physics of steering system and vehicle
motion, "forces" front of vehicle to drive straight, but with a "net
sum" of toe out and steering wheel off center."
you got it, that's what I was trying to get across to you.
tell me........
is your goal to get it aligned well enough just to drive to a real alignment
shop,
or to get it really pretty close and use it that way ?
Despite naysayers..........with enough cleverness and patience and
determination.....
you can get it pretty good.
the castor is the really weird one .....way trickier, but toe and
camber......you can get those pretty close.
about what is 'good' or not .....
here're my standards .......
the van goes striaght by itself , no pulling or drifting either left or
right.
the steering wheel is centered going striaght down the road.
toe, camber, and castor all check out pretty close or right on.
the tires do not wear quickly, or wear in funny patterns, like cuping.
the tires do not squeal early or easily in hard cornering.
tire temps are fairly even across the tread, and about the same left to
right in the front.
and the tires last a long time, and handling is predicitable, etc.
if it does all that, and there's no play or slop or wear anywhere......
it's pretty close to right on.
and .......here's the other thing guys......and gals.......
some alignment shops and many professional techs are not really trustworhty
or competent.
I've had a woman bring me a mercedes car with a mile of tie rod end slop on
a front tie rod ........
having just spent 60 bucks on an alignemt - a pure and total rip off
........akin to stealing her 60 bucks.
I've read about a guy coming out of a shop after an alignment and noticing
that the steering wheel isn't straight going down the road anymore, ( and it
was before this aligment ) .........the shop tells him it's not adjustable
and it's that way due to the crown of the road that causes cars to drift
right, and they compensate for that in their adjustments ..........
there's some of the later factor sometimes, or was, when raods where more
crowned 40 years ago ......but the first part is utter BS.
Centering the steering wheel is fundamental to a correct front end
alignment.
you can do far, far,.........well SOME PEOPLE.................... can do
far, far better than a typical sloppy shop by doing their own work.
have fun !
Neil.......
re your castor adjustment .
Do this ...........the idea is to compare both sides, left and right, and to
see if they are pretty equal.
first turn the steering full right, as far as it will go.
you'll notice the right front tire is tilted out quite a bit - or should be.
If you use a carpenter's level and a small ruler to measure that ( at the
wheel rim edge ) you'll see the tire leans out about 2 inches.
then go measure the left front, and you should find it leans in just a
little ( left front tire leans in a little at full right lock ) , like half
inch maybe.
then turn full left, and measure both wheels/tires again.
you should find the LF tilted way out, like two inches, and the RF tilted in
just a bit, like half inch max.
If they match left to right........and it's roughly as I've described
.....your castor is about right.
if your RF tire never leans out much at full right lock............for
example say, .........work on that via the big nuts on the strut rod for the
RF wheel.....
but it gets complicated and tricky, so try to just keep those adjusted where
they were as much as possible.
I just had to do the same 'whole job' on the front end of an 83 Westy I have
for sale. The hole in the body wasn't worn out like yours was, so I was able
to pretty much put things right back where they were ( after putting in new
rubber bushings ) and it came out darn close on the castor.
for drifting to one side, after confirming the castor meansurements are
about like they should be ......
then check camber .......
also...........if you just swear all adjustments are pretty right, and it
still drifts or pulls to one side, try swapping the front tires .
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
FIRE warning .....I just picked up a nice 87 GL with not-too-bad fire
damgae in the right rear. No rust, and no dents either. New windshield
even.
it even has a rebult trans that cost the owner $ 1,500 US plus $ 300 labor
only 2 and a half years ago . And now he is vanaonless.
So you know.........it's the ole not chekcking things on the engine ever
.....
not paying attention to fuel hoses etc...........
litterly not getting your nose into the engine compartment now and then.
For lack of just checking things ...........they guy has a 3,000 dollar loss
here, and no vanagon to drive.,
A serious fire suppression system in a vanagon engine compartment wouldn't
be that bad an idea actually.
A nice fat fire extinquisher under the back seat say, and nozzles aimed at
the engine from all sides in the engine comparmtment.
That might fix this 'seems to happen a lot' syndrome that vanagons seem to
have .
scott
----- Original Message -----
From: "neil N" <musomuso@gmail.com>
To: "Scott Daniel - Turbovans" <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>
Cc: <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Trying To Understand Tie rod Adjustments
> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans
> <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
>> all right .......
>> I'm getting what's going on perhaps .......
>> Neil for your thinking ........IF there was a 'center line' in the middle
>> of
>> the van , that you measured toe from for each front wheel.......
>> that would make perfect sense......but there isn't.
>>
>> the 'physical point' you measure from is .........each front wheel
>> relative
>> to the other.
>
>
> Again, much thanks Scott and Tom
>
> Don Hanson posted about finding the centre of the vehicle itself. But,
> I appreciate the further explanation.
>
> Scott:
>
> I get it now!
>
> If L-wheel 0*, R-wheel toe out, physics of steering system and vehicle
> motion, "forces" front of vehicle to drive straight, but with a "net
> sum" of toe out and steering wheel off center.
>
> Another analogy? Sit in a swivel chair, set hands to above example,
> keep hands in position, but turn body? I can see that.
>
> To further complicate things, the repaired worn radius arm hole has a
> "new" radius arm with inner nut set to OLD arm nut position. Before
> repair, castor likely adjusted to compensate for the damaged (ovaled)
> hole and worn bushings. So "new" pre adjusted to castor of old arm,
> likely isn't correct.
>
> For s**ts and giggles, I'll adjust the inner nut on that arm back to
> where it was (it was off a parts Vanagon) and see if that makes any
> difference to RH drift.
>
> Neil.
>
>
> --
> Neil Nicholson '81 VanaJetta 2.0 "Jaco"
>
> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engines
