Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 23:25:33 -0400
Reply-To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Best Practices for Engine Rebuild Break In Process
In-Reply-To: <001c01c9ce9c$0a62ffd0$1f28ff70$@com>
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No one on the list did anything to make me go away. I just got sidetracked
with a lot of other issues and just couldn’t get my brain engaged. While my
head is filled with all sorts of stuff it take a lot of effort me to put
things into words and type them.
I also don't consider myself as "all knowing" or above others. I just have a
lot of experience on things electrical and mechanical outside of the
automotive world which gives me a different perspective of how some things
work. I am also will to change, try new things, and accept my mistakes.
One thing I really like about the Vanagon community is the diversity of
folks and how well we really do get along. I get enjoyment out of helping
folks and this list gives me an opportunity to do that. I also have a
fondness for the Vanagon and RV's and the lifestyle both can bring.
For those that may not agree with something I post, challenge me.
As for oil and filter choices. Yes Mobil 1 15w-50 is my choice for the
Waterboxer especially for extended high speed driving. This goes against
current wisdom for small high revving engines. High viscosity oils in high
speed engines use up considerable power and create additional heat due to
those pumping losses. Unfortunately the Waterboxer has some design issues
which can cause the oil temperature to suffer thermal runaway and the
resulting oil pressure losses. Thrown rod here we come. The higher viscosity
helps protect from this. My other VW's Audi, and the Benz get the Mobil 1
0W-40 European oil. This is really great in winter. Almost no wait for warm
up. Just start and drive. I have also experimented with this oil in the
Waterboxer and under normal conditions or with an oil cooler it is fine. I
have been able to get the oil buzzer going with it with some effort.
Note that there are two versions of the 15W-50. Normal and extended
performance. Oil testing has shown that 7,500 miles is a good change
interval for the Waterboxer. Nitration is the issue. My Fox can go to 14,000
miles with the TG or Mobil 1 filter. With the Mahle I had to change at 7,000
miles due to silica and wear metals. I have seen this in a few other engines
including two Waterboxers. While those filters are quality parts, the media
just doesn't support extended drains.
For antifreeze, if you think we have questions, go into the Diesel truck
world. There you can get really confused. I am currently experiment with
Fleet Final Charge. This is supposed to be good for 6 years or 600,000 miles
in the truck engine needing one supplement at the half life. I'll keep folks
posted.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Robert Fisher
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 6:43 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Best Practices for Engine Rebuild Break In Process
On the other hand talking about him like that might embarrass him and make
him go away again. : /
I don't take anybody's word as gospel, but with Dennis, or Mark D. and a
couple of others, I'll generally take what they say as good until I discover
otherwise- which hasn't happened that I recall. I usually go looking for
other facts and opinions before settling on anything but with those guys
it's generally been an exercise in redundancy.
IIRC Dennis has made four mistakes that I've caught in the time I've been on
the list: Two were typos, on one he reversed his order of statement of facts
and once he posted at about four in the morning and left a phrase right out
of the middle of his sentence or something to that effect.
If you're not sure about the list gurus' advice it's at the very least a
good launch point for your own research. By all means dig until you're
satisfied... it's generally a good idea.
Cya,
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Jake de Villiers
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 3:18 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Best Practices for Engine Rebuild Break In Process
Dennis is pretty close to a God - what he says, we do - don't argue or maybe
he'll go away again...
On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Robert Stewart
<robertmstewart@mac.com>wrote:
> Dennis,
>
> RE: "Start off with the same oil that you plan to use."
> I was planning on running the 15/50 Mobil 1 Synthetic, you think it's Ok
to
> run that from the first oiling of the engine onward?
>
> I thought that was not to be done.
>
> Also I thought we should only be using the (Mann/Mahle) Oil Filters? I
> thought I understood you saying I should use "Mobil 1, Fram Tough guard,
>
>> and Purolator Pure One are amongst the most efficient out there." Where
>> do I find the exact model numbers I should be using?
>>
>
> Little confused and I really can't afford to screw this up.
>
> Thanks your assistance,
> Robert
> NY
>
>
> On May 5, 2009, at 9:17 PM, Dennis Haynes wrote:
>
> There is all sorts of myth regarding engine break in and much of it is
not
>> based on anything real.
>>
>> 1) All rebuilds will have some junk, dirt, loose carbon particles etc.
>> maybe
>> changing the oil after a short run makes sense but most of this should be
>> absorbed by the filter. Use a good filter. The Mobil 1, Fram Tough guard,
>> and Purolator Pure One are amongst the most efficient out there. The
>> Purolator seems to have a higher pressure drop. Oil testing has shown
>> these
>> to be effective filters supporting 7,500 mile oil changes.
>>
>> 2) Start off with the same oil that you plan to use. Even so called dino
>> oils have a lot of anti friction additives. In reality, if there is
>> anything
>> so tight it has to wear in you want the best protection to avoid galling.
>> You want some wear, not tear. Do not use a lighter oil than you normally
>> would just cause you want something to break in.
>>
>> 3) Drive normally. Gently but normal. Letting the engine idle for 10
>> minutes
>> while warming it up isn't helping anything. Remember the pistons rely on
>> splash for some oiling. Rev that engine and get the cylinders wet. Yes,
>> avoid long full throttle runs until the rings seat but an occasional
spurt
>> is a good thing.
>>
>> 4) Vary speed while driving. This will help seat the rings and define the
>> carbon ridge at the top of the piston.
>>
>> 5) Maintain and regularly check the coolant and oil levels. Do not
>> overfill
>> the crankcase. 4.5 quarts for oil and filter change is plenty. Mark the
>> dipstick. Make sure the cooling system maintains pressure. Test it!
>>
>> After a few thousand miles, have the oil tested. This will also pick up
>> antifreeze leaks at the base of the cylinders or from under the head
nuts.
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf
>> Of
>> Robert Stewart
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 6:27 PM
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Subject: Best Practices for Engine Rebuild Break In Process
>>
>> Hey Everyone,
>>
>> My rebuilt engine is going back in the van this week. What are the
>> best practices to follow when breaking it in?
>>
>> My rebuilt engine has rebuilt heads from Van-Cafe and Cofap pistons in
>> it.
>>
>> I was told by one person to change the oil after the first 30 minutes
>> of running the engine. Then after 500 miles change the oil and filter,
>> then again at 1,000 before moving from Dino Oil to Synthetic. It was
>> suggested I use 10w/40 Dino Oil first before moving to Synthetic.
>>
>> I just and article from Go-Westy and want to know if people agree with
>> what they say or have different thoughts.
>>
>> http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=860
>>
>> During the first 1000 miles of engine life:
>>
>> 1) Allow coolant temperature to come up to normal running temperature
>> before driving.
>> 2) Avoid full throttle application.
>> 3) Do not exceed an engine speed of 4,000 rpm.
>> 4) Do not use cruise control or maintain a constant engine speed for
>> more than 10 minutes at a time.
>> 5) Maximize warm-up cycles; the more times the engine is brought up to
>> full operating temperature and allowed to cool fully, the better.
>>
>> During the first 10,000 miles:
>>
>> 1) Monitor oil consumption carefully; check oil at EVERY gasoline fill-
>> up.
>> Note: The distance between the two notches on the dipstick is NOT one
>> quart. Adding a full quart when oil level is at the bottom notch WILL
>> result in over-filling, very high oil consumption, and possible engine
>> damage.
>> 2) Keep the oil level closer to the lower notch than the upper notch.
>> 3) Use 20/50 non-synthetic oil (any brand). Do not switch to synthetic
>> oil until oil consumption has stabilized.
>>
>> After 10,000 miles and for the life of the engine:
>>
>> 1) Never apply more than ½ throttle before coolant temperature is up
>> to normal, which is about the middle of the gauge.
>> 2) Contrary to popular belief, it is NOT good for the coolant
>> temperature to stay at the low end of the gauge. If you notice your
>> coolant temperature is not coming up to normal it is cause for alarm—
>> get it checked out.
>> 3) Use only the top quality synthetic oil of 15/50-weight.
>>
>> About oil consumption:
>> It is normal for an engine to consume oil. Following the guidelines
>> above will have a direct effect on how much oil the engine will consume
>> —forever. The factory specification from VW is that up to one quart
>> per 1000 miles is “normal.” The oil capacity of a water boxer is 5
>> quarts. These engines have a “wet sump,” and as long as the oil pump
>> pick-up does not starve for oil, oil pressure in the engine will be
>> the same regardless of whether there is one quart of oil present or
>> five; it makes no difference. In general, if no oil has to be added
>> between oil changes, that is what we consider to be “acceptable.” That
>> equates to around ½ quart per 1000 miles. That means that at 3500
>> miles, the engine will be no more than 2 quarts low.
>>
>>
--
Jake
1984 Vanagon GL
1986 Westy Weekender "Dixie"
Crescent Beach, BC
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27
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