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Date:         Wed, 27 May 2009 10:37:06 -0400
Reply-To:     Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
Subject:      Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob
Comments: To: Jake de Villiers <crescentbeachguitar@GMAIL.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <71d9cdf90905261533p4679279cj110797f48b7d856f@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Jake, I am with you on this one. I have done many, many head gasket replacements and head replacements over the years. I don't know the exact number but it is well over 50 at this point (maybe over 100 I don't know). I have used the AMC heads exclusively for the past 11 years. Out of all of those jobs I have never had one come back due to a bad valve. Actually out of all of those jobs I have only ever had to redo one and that was at the very beginning of my business and due to a bad spot on the case that I didn't properly address (live and learn). Beside that I have never had a head gasket or head replacement job ever come back or have a problem that I know of. That is a pretty good track record. I am a small shop, I hate returns way worse that you ever could since I do this job many times a year not just once. If I thought for a moment that this was a problem I would change the valves myself so that I could avoid a come back. It just has never happened so I don't feel like treating a disease that doesn't exist. I am just sharing my experience here.

Ken Wilford John 3:16 www.vanagain.com

Jake de Villiers wrote: > I'm with Jeff. If an 'improved' head with better valves and tweaked keepers > is only $100 more than an AMC head that is good for ~30,000 miles, why would > I want to cheap out? > > The labour to re & re the head that swallowed a valve will be at least > $1000, you and they'll want to check the other side too that's $2000 plus > towing etc. > > Why wouldn't you want to do it right the first time? I know which shop I'd > get my heads replaced at - the one that does the best job *ONCE*! > > On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Jeff <vw.doka@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> Ken, >> >> Actually, the wholesale cost of a bare (no valves, springs or keepers) AMC >> head is substantially below $300, so a $499 "upgraded" head is easily >> doable. >> >> Even the wholesale cost of a complete AMC head is below your example below >> of $389. >> >> As for valves... wholesale cost of "better" exhaust valves is less than >> $25, >> intakes are less than $10. When I say "better", I'm referring to TRW >> valves >> that are made in Germany. >> >> And these are my prices. A large company that purchases in bulk will get >> much better pricing. >> >> >> One thing that we commonly do is to reuse the original VW valves (if they >> are within specifications) on new AMC heads. >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ken Wilford [mailto:kenwilfy@comcast.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:32 PM >> To: VW Doka >> Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >> Subject: Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob >> >> Jeff, >> OK, let's pretend that you are going to replace your exhaust valves with >> "better" ones that are around $35 each. This is just exhaust valves >> however there are two of these per head ($70) then you are going to want >> to use "better" intake valves which run around $20 each ($40 per head). >> So just in valves you are talking about adding $110 in cost per head. >> Now look at what folks are charging for the heads with the "better" >> valves. A certain company who shall remain nameless is selling their >> "better" valve heads for $499 each. This would mean that they would >> have to buy their heads at $389 each just to break even (not making any >> money and not factoring in their labor). The heads just aren't this >> cheap. Even if they could get the heads for $300 (way below what anyone >> can actually get them for wholesale) you are talking about only making >> $89 per head which wouldn't be worth it. That might cover your labor in >> removing, installing and lapping the valves but that is it. No profit. >> The math just doesn't work. The only way it works out is if you take >> the AMC valves out and put something else in that is relatively cheap. >> I know one particular rebuilder who shall remain nameless who was >> replacing the AMC valves with aftermarket stainless ones that he could >> get pretty cheaply. This was working well for him for a while until he >> ran into a bad batch of these aftermarket valves that had improperly >> heat treated stems and had valves start failing on him. So the very >> "problem" that he was supposed to be fixing by replacing the valves was >> the thing that started happening. Ironic, isn't it? >> >> So if people wanted to pay a premium for heads with OE valves installed >> I would have no problem with that. People can pay a premium to get >> premium valves. However when a company says their heads are better when >> they are putting in aftermarket valves which may or may not be any >> better than what they are replacing I just don't think this is right. >> Just my opinion. >> >> Ken Wilford >> John 3:16 >> www.vanagain.com >> >> VW Doka wrote: >> >>> >From my experience, they start to show significant valve stem wear >>> around 20k miles. Failure around 40k miles. >>> >>> The bad batch story is just that... a story. The AMC heads sold today >>> still use the same cheap, crappy exhaust valves as the ones from 5 >>> years ago. You can buy the same valves brand new for about $7. A >>> good exhaust valve for the WBXer runs about $35. >>> >>> Not conjecture, not really opinion... just my experience. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Robert Keezer <warmerwagen@yahoo.com> >>> >> wrote: >> >>>> Very logical . After all, how would a company like this stay in business >>>> >> year after year with notoriously bad valves? >> >>>> It just did'nt make sense. >>>> >>>> I think Kens' answer is reasonable fro me to go by. >>>> >>>> One bad batch has perpetuated this myth all these years. I never >>>> >> believed it . >> >>>> Most of my Vanagons sold with AMC heads and never a complaint. >>>> Which is why I asked, how long do they last? This bad batch head? >>>> >>>> If they went bad in 5 years, I would'nt expect to hear from the buyer . >>>> One year or less maybe . Less than 6 months probably. >>>> >>>> Robert >>>> 1982 Westfalia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET> >>>> Subject: Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob >>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >>>> Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 12:18 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> I spent a bunch of time on the phone with Bob talking about this subject >>>> as well, but I believe all of this fear and loathing about the AMC >>>> valves is due to a bad batch of these heads back about 6 or 7 years >>>> ago. I have never had a failure like the one Bob always warned me about >>>> and I never changed the valves from the stock ones. Recently I had a >>>> pair of AMC heads that I installed on an engine about two years ago come >>>> back into my possession (engine threw a rod). The heads had about 18k >>>> miles on them. I took the heads to a machine shop to have them checked >>>> and a valve job done before selling the heads to a list member. I asked >>>> the machine shop about the condition of the valve keepers, grooves on >>>> the valve stems, etc. He said that he had inspected them and they were >>>> like new condition and that they valves themselves were also in like new >>>> condition. I can say that I have never had an AMC head fail in 11 years >>>> of installing them. I have never had one that I have sold to a customer >>>> fail due to a bad valve either. Anything can fail if you abuse it, or >>>> improperly install it, or don't correctly adjust the valves, etc. >>>> However I have never found the stock AMC valves to have any issues. If >>>> you want to spend extra money on "better" valves and install them only >>>> to have them fail (I have known this to happen) that is your choice. >>>> However the stigma against using the AMC heads out of the box is totally >>>> unfounded as far as I am concerned. >>>> >>>> Just my experience, >>>> Ken Wilford >>>> John 3:16 >>>> www.vanagain.com >>>> >>>> >>>> Zoltan wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> One important fact I learned from Bob, was that the AMC heads have >>>>> >> loose >> keepers. The two halves meet each other to touch, thus grabbing the valve >> stem, being loose, they travel up and down until they break through the >> grooves and the valve free to move deeper inside and then operated by the >> piston to have it pushed up. >> >>>>> So, the first thing I recomment to anyone I meet is to have the keepers >>>>> >> ground at their sides until they don't touch each other. >> >>>>> Bob was very happy with the AMC heads and tossed the old ones for their >>>>> >> metal fatigue. In his experience, it was not worth chancing all the >> troubles by putting the old ones back. >> >>>>> He liked the better material the AMC heads are made of. >>>>> So, the keepers must be fixed first. >>>>> Zoltan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > > > > -- > Jake > > 1984 Vanagon GL > 1986 Westy Weekender "Dixie" > > Crescent Beach, BC > > www.thebassspa.com > www.crescentbeachguitar.com > http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27 > >


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