Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 14:54:01 -0400
Reply-To: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob
In-Reply-To: <2f18aa9f0905271128wc33c52eh5ef23868bad7fa35@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Jeff, of course I don't think that these guys are all in cohoots with
each other or that they are raking customers over the coals. However if
you can make your product seem better than others and even set yourself
up and the one and only source for something isn't that a great
marketing plan? I am not saying that AMC heads never go bad. I have
seen them fried to death by customers who drove their vans with no
coolant and abused their engines. Nothing can withstand abuse. But I
am just sharing my experience with properly installing these heads for
myself and customers over the years. I usually have two Vanagons on the
road at all times. I drive them daily and I also take at least two 1600
mile road trips each year. I have never had any of these problems crop
up in my own vans nor have I seen them in customer's vans. Some of my
customers are locals who rarely drive their vans, some are folks who
made it to the East Coast and broke down and are going back to the West
Coast as soon as the van is fixed. Others are people who want to take
the Vanagon camper dream trip around the US. I have worked for all of
these different versions of van owner. I am just sharing my
experience. Jeff is sharing his. Who is right? We both are, we are
just telling what we have seen and experienced. However when people put
a flat stamp on something and say, "No you can never just use an AMC
head out the box." I think folks that have had other experiences should
be able to share what they have found or have experienced as well.
Just my opinion.
Ken Wilford
John 3:16
www.vanagain.com
VW Doka wrote:
> Mark,
>
> Normally, I would agree with you. But I find it hard to believe that
> Boston Bob, Bus Depot, GoWesty, etc., were all in collusion just so
> they could tack an additional $100 onto the price of an AMC cylinder
> head.
>
> I've experienced the same issues they have (on a smaller scale) and am
> not inclined to dismiss this known issue so easily. No way I'll put
> an unmodified AMC head in one of my motors, let alone one of my
> customer's.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Marc Perdue <mcperdue@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Given the widely diverse experiences you all are having/have had, I'm
>> beginning to wonder if there's a difference in your processes, i.e.,
>> what exactly you do when you replace the heads, set the valves, what
>> specs things are set to, etc. On the surface of it, you'd think there
>> couldn't be a difference; after all, how many ways are there to do the
>> job? However, all other things being equal, i.e., if the AMC heads
>> each of you get are essentially identical, then how is it you could be
>> getting such different results? This is just sort of the systems
>> analyst in me talking, with a hypothetical ponderance...
>> Environmental considerations certainly could come into play, I
>> suppose, but I suspect there's something else going on . . .
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 1:51 PM, VW Doka <vw.doka@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "Doesn't exist"?? That pile of scrap AMC heads that I took the
>>> recycler must've been a mirage...
>>>
>>> Perhaps it's a "west coast" thing...
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jake, I am with you on this one. I have done many, many head gasket
>>>> replacements and head replacements over the years. I don't know the
>>>> exact number but it is well over 50 at this point (maybe over 100 I
>>>> don't know). I have used the AMC heads exclusively for the past 11
>>>> years. Out of all of those jobs I have never had one come back due to a
>>>> bad valve. Actually out of all of those jobs I have only ever had to
>>>> redo one and that was at the very beginning of my business and due to a
>>>> bad spot on the case that I didn't properly address (live and learn).
>>>> Beside that I have never had a head gasket or head replacement job ever
>>>> come back or have a problem that I know of. That is a pretty good track
>>>> record. I am a small shop, I hate returns way worse that you ever could
>>>> since I do this job many times a year not just once. If I thought for a
>>>> moment that this was a problem I would change the valves myself so that
>>>> I could avoid a come back. It just has never happened so I don't feel
>>>> like treating a disease that doesn't exist. I am just sharing my
>>>> experience here.
>>>>
>>>> Ken Wilford
>>>> John 3:16
>>>> www.vanagain.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jake de Villiers wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm with Jeff. If an 'improved' head with better valves and tweaked
>>>>> keepers
>>>>> is only $100 more than an AMC head that is good for ~30,000 miles, why
>>>>> would
>>>>> I want to cheap out?
>>>>>
>>>>> The labour to re & re the head that swallowed a valve will be at least
>>>>> $1000, you and they'll want to check the other side too that's $2000 plus
>>>>> towing etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why wouldn't you want to do it right the first time? I know which shop
>>>>> I'd
>>>>> get my heads replaced at - the one that does the best job *ONCE*!
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Jeff <vw.doka@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, the wholesale cost of a bare (no valves, springs or keepers)
>>>>>> AMC
>>>>>> head is substantially below $300, so a $499 "upgraded" head is easily
>>>>>> doable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even the wholesale cost of a complete AMC head is below your example
>>>>>> below
>>>>>> of $389.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for valves... wholesale cost of "better" exhaust valves is less than
>>>>>> $25,
>>>>>> intakes are less than $10. When I say "better", I'm referring to TRW
>>>>>> valves
>>>>>> that are made in Germany.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And these are my prices. A large company that purchases in bulk will get
>>>>>> much better pricing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One thing that we commonly do is to reuse the original VW valves (if they
>>>>>> are within specifications) on new AMC heads.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Ken Wilford [mailto:kenwilfy@comcast.net]
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:32 PM
>>>>>> To: VW Doka
>>>>>> Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff,
>>>>>> OK, let's pretend that you are going to replace your exhaust valves with
>>>>>> "better" ones that are around $35 each. This is just exhaust valves
>>>>>> however there are two of these per head ($70) then you are going to want
>>>>>> to use "better" intake valves which run around $20 each ($40 per head).
>>>>>> So just in valves you are talking about adding $110 in cost per head.
>>>>>> Now look at what folks are charging for the heads with the "better"
>>>>>> valves. A certain company who shall remain nameless is selling their
>>>>>> "better" valve heads for $499 each. This would mean that they would
>>>>>> have to buy their heads at $389 each just to break even (not making any
>>>>>> money and not factoring in their labor). The heads just aren't this
>>>>>> cheap. Even if they could get the heads for $300 (way below what anyone
>>>>>> can actually get them for wholesale) you are talking about only making
>>>>>> $89 per head which wouldn't be worth it. That might cover your labor in
>>>>>> removing, installing and lapping the valves but that is it. No profit.
>>>>>> The math just doesn't work. The only way it works out is if you take
>>>>>> the AMC valves out and put something else in that is relatively cheap.
>>>>>> I know one particular rebuilder who shall remain nameless who was
>>>>>> replacing the AMC valves with aftermarket stainless ones that he could
>>>>>> get pretty cheaply. This was working well for him for a while until he
>>>>>> ran into a bad batch of these aftermarket valves that had improperly
>>>>>> heat treated stems and had valves start failing on him. So the very
>>>>>> "problem" that he was supposed to be fixing by replacing the valves was
>>>>>> the thing that started happening. Ironic, isn't it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So if people wanted to pay a premium for heads with OE valves installed
>>>>>> I would have no problem with that. People can pay a premium to get
>>>>>> premium valves. However when a company says their heads are better when
>>>>>> they are putting in aftermarket valves which may or may not be any
>>>>>> better than what they are replacing I just don't think this is right.
>>>>>> Just my opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken Wilford
>>>>>> John 3:16
>>>>>> www.vanagain.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> VW Doka wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >From my experience, they start to show significant valve stem wear
>>>>>>> around 20k miles. Failure around 40k miles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The bad batch story is just that... a story. The AMC heads sold today
>>>>>>> still use the same cheap, crappy exhaust valves as the ones from 5
>>>>>>> years ago. You can buy the same valves brand new for about $7. A
>>>>>>> good exhaust valve for the WBXer runs about $35.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not conjecture, not really opinion... just my experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Robert Keezer <warmerwagen@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Very logical . After all, how would a company like this stay in
>>>>>>>> business
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> year after year with notoriously bad valves?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It just did'nt make sense.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think Kens' answer is reasonable fro me to go by.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One bad batch has perpetuated this myth all these years. I never
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> believed it .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most of my Vanagons sold with AMC heads and never a complaint.
>>>>>>>> Which is why I asked, how long do they last? This bad batch head?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If they went bad in 5 years, I would'nt expect to hear from the buyer .
>>>>>>>> One year or less maybe . Less than 6 months probably.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>> 1982 Westfalia
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob
>>>>>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 12:18 PM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I spent a bunch of time on the phone with Bob talking about this
>>>>>>>> subject
>>>>>>>> as well, but I believe all of this fear and loathing about the AMC
>>>>>>>> valves is due to a bad batch of these heads back about 6 or 7 years
>>>>>>>> ago. I have never had a failure like the one Bob always warned me
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> and I never changed the valves from the stock ones. Recently I had a
>>>>>>>> pair of AMC heads that I installed on an engine about two years ago
>>>>>>>> come
>>>>>>>> back into my possession (engine threw a rod). The heads had about 18k
>>>>>>>> miles on them. I took the heads to a machine shop to have them checked
>>>>>>>> and a valve job done before selling the heads to a list member. I
>>>>>>>> asked
>>>>>>>> the machine shop about the condition of the valve keepers, grooves on
>>>>>>>> the valve stems, etc. He said that he had inspected them and they were
>>>>>>>> like new condition and that they valves themselves were also in like
>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>> condition. I can say that I have never had an AMC head fail in 11
>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>> of installing them. I have never had one that I have sold to a
>>>>>>>> customer
>>>>>>>> fail due to a bad valve either. Anything can fail if you abuse it, or
>>>>>>>> improperly install it, or don't correctly adjust the valves, etc.
>>>>>>>> However I have never found the stock AMC valves to have any issues. If
>>>>>>>> you want to spend extra money on "better" valves and install them only
>>>>>>>> to have them fail (I have known this to happen) that is your choice.
>>>>>>>> However the stigma against using the AMC heads out of the box is
>>>>>>>> totally
>>>>>>>> unfounded as far as I am concerned.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just my experience,
>>>>>>>> Ken Wilford
>>>>>>>> John 3:16
>>>>>>>> www.vanagain.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Zoltan wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One important fact I learned from Bob, was that the AMC heads have
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> loose
>>>>>> keepers. The two halves meet each other to touch, thus grabbing the
>>>>>> valve
>>>>>> stem, being loose, they travel up and down until they break through the
>>>>>> grooves and the valve free to move deeper inside and then operated by the
>>>>>> piston to have it pushed up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, the first thing I recomment to anyone I meet is to have the
>>>>>>>>> keepers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ground at their sides until they don't touch each other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bob was very happy with the AMC heads and tossed the old ones for
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> metal fatigue. In his experience, it was not worth chancing all the
>>>>>> troubles by putting the old ones back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He liked the better material the AMC heads are made of.
>>>>>>>>> So, the keepers must be fixed first.
>>>>>>>>> Zoltan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jake
>>>>>
>>>>> 1984 Vanagon GL
>>>>> 1986 Westy Weekender "Dixie"
>>>>>
>>>>> Crescent Beach, BC
>>>>>
>>>>> www.thebassspa.com
>>>>> www.crescentbeachguitar.com
>>>>> http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>
>
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