Date:         Wed, 27 May 2009 16:15:40 -0400
Reply-To:     VW Doka <vw.doka@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         VW Doka <vw.doka@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I agree with you about sharing experiences, and I never said "don't
put them on straight out of the box.  I said that I would never put
them on straight out of the box.

To be fair, you did state that "you won't treat a disease that doesn't
exist".  Perhaps you meant that in your experience, you've never seen
the dreaded AMC valve stem disease.  In the big picture, it doesn't
really matter.

Marketing is one thing, but I think anyone would be hard pressed to
state that a stock AMC head is equivalent to an AMC head that has been
upgraded with better valves and keepers.  Particularily, the
sodium-filled exhaust valves.

Cheap exhaust valves and VW boxer engines just don't along.  That's as
true today as it was when I first started turning wrenches for a
living on VWs in the 70's (Harvey's Automotive in Leucadia, CA).  Put
cheap exhaust valves in your Type 4 engine and I can guarantee you'll
be replacing your heads in the not-to-distant future.  The
water-cooled engines are a little less picky, but the problem still
remains.

In my experience... it's just not worth saving a few bucks over.

Cheers,

Jeff



On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@comcast.net> wrote:
> Jeff, of course I don't think that these guys are all in cohoots with eac=
h
> other or that they are raking customers over the coals. =A0However if you=
 can
> make your product seem better than others and even set yourself up and th=
e
> one and only source for something isn't that a great marketing plan? =A0I=
 am
> not saying that AMC heads never go bad. =A0I have seen them fried to deat=
h by
> customers who drove their vans with no coolant and abused their engines.
> =A0Nothing can withstand abuse. =A0But I am just sharing my experience wi=
th
> properly installing these heads for myself and customers over the years. =
=A0I
> usually have two Vanagons on the road at all times. =A0I drive them daily=
 and
> I also take at least two 1600 mile road trips each year. =A0I have never =
had
> any of these problems crop up in my own vans nor have I seen them in
> customer's vans. =A0Some of my customers are locals who rarely drive thei=
r
> vans, some are folks who made it to the East Coast and broke down and are
> going back to the West Coast as soon as the van is fixed. =A0Others are p=
eople
> who want to take the Vanagon camper dream trip around the US. =A0I have w=
orked
> for all of these different versions of van owner. =A0I am just sharing my
> experience. =A0Jeff is sharing his. =A0Who is right? =A0We both are, we a=
re just
> telling what we have seen and experienced. =A0However when people put a f=
lat
> stamp on something and say, "No you can never just use an AMC head out th=
e
> box." =A0I think folks that have had other experiences should be able to =
share
> what they have found or have experienced as well.
> Just my opinion.
>
> Ken Wilford
> John 3:16
> www.vanagain.com
>
>
> VW Doka wrote:
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Normally, I would agree with you. =A0But I find it hard to believe that
>> Boston Bob, Bus Depot, GoWesty, etc., were all in collusion just so
>> they could tack an additional $100 onto the price of an AMC cylinder
>> head.
>>
>> I've experienced the same issues they have (on a smaller scale) and am
>> not inclined to dismiss this known issue so easily. =A0No way I'll put
>> an unmodified AMC head in one of my motors, let alone one of my
>> customer's.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Marc Perdue <mcperdue@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Given the widely diverse experiences you all are having/have had, I'm
>>> beginning to wonder if there's a difference in your processes, i.e.,
>>> what exactly you do when you replace the heads, set the valves, what
>>> specs things are set to, etc. =A0On the surface of it, you'd think ther=
e
>>> couldn't be a difference; after all, how many ways are there to do the
>>> job? =A0However, all other things being equal, i.e., if the AMC heads
>>> each of you get are essentially identical, then how is it you could be
>>> getting such different results? =A0This is just sort of the systems
>>> analyst in me talking, with a hypothetical ponderance...
>>> Environmental considerations certainly could come into play, I
>>> suppose, but I suspect there's something else going on . . .
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 1:51 PM, VW Doka <vw.doka@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Doesn't exist"?? =A0That pile of scrap AMC heads that I took the
>>>> recycler must've been a mirage...
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it's a "west coast" thing...
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jake, I am with you on this one. =A0I have done many, many head gaske=
t
>>>>> replacements and head replacements over the years. =A0I don't know th=
e
>>>>> exact number but it is well over 50 at this point (maybe over 100 I
>>>>> don't know). =A0I have used the AMC heads exclusively for the past 11
>>>>> years. =A0Out of all of those jobs I have never had one come back due=
 to
>>>>> a
>>>>> bad valve. =A0Actually out of all of those jobs I have only ever had =
to
>>>>> redo one and that was at the very beginning of my business and due to=
 a
>>>>> bad spot on the case that I didn't properly address (live and learn).
>>>>> Beside that I have never had a head gasket or head replacement job ev=
er
>>>>> come back or have a problem that I know of. =A0That is a pretty good
>>>>> track
>>>>> record. =A0I am a small shop, I hate returns way worse that you ever
>>>>> could
>>>>> since I do this job many times a year not just once. =A0If I thought =
for
>>>>> a
>>>>> moment that this was a problem I would change the valves myself so th=
at
>>>>> I could avoid a come back. =A0It just has never happened so I don't f=
eel
>>>>> like treating a disease that doesn't exist. =A0I am just sharing my
>>>>> experience here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken Wilford
>>>>> John 3:16
>>>>> www.vanagain.com
>>>>>
>>>>>