Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 18:17:48 -0400
Reply-To: Jeff <vw.doka@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Jeff <vw.doka@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob
In-Reply-To: <4A1C5FCD.2010907@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ken,
Actually, the wholesale cost of a bare (no valves, springs or keepers) AMC
head is substantially below $300, so a $499 "upgraded" head is easily
doable.
Even the wholesale cost of a complete AMC head is below your example below
of $389.
As for valves... wholesale cost of "better" exhaust valves is less than $25,
intakes are less than $10. When I say "better", I'm referring to TRW valves
that are made in Germany.
And these are my prices. A large company that purchases in bulk will get
much better pricing.
One thing that we commonly do is to reuse the original VW valves (if they
are within specifications) on new AMC heads.
Cheers,
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Wilford [mailto:kenwilfy@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:32 PM
To: VW Doka
Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob
Jeff,
OK, let's pretend that you are going to replace your exhaust valves with
"better" ones that are around $35 each. This is just exhaust valves
however there are two of these per head ($70) then you are going to want
to use "better" intake valves which run around $20 each ($40 per head).
So just in valves you are talking about adding $110 in cost per head.
Now look at what folks are charging for the heads with the "better"
valves. A certain company who shall remain nameless is selling their
"better" valve heads for $499 each. This would mean that they would
have to buy their heads at $389 each just to break even (not making any
money and not factoring in their labor). The heads just aren't this
cheap. Even if they could get the heads for $300 (way below what anyone
can actually get them for wholesale) you are talking about only making
$89 per head which wouldn't be worth it. That might cover your labor in
removing, installing and lapping the valves but that is it. No profit.
The math just doesn't work. The only way it works out is if you take
the AMC valves out and put something else in that is relatively cheap.
I know one particular rebuilder who shall remain nameless who was
replacing the AMC valves with aftermarket stainless ones that he could
get pretty cheaply. This was working well for him for a while until he
ran into a bad batch of these aftermarket valves that had improperly
heat treated stems and had valves start failing on him. So the very
"problem" that he was supposed to be fixing by replacing the valves was
the thing that started happening. Ironic, isn't it?
So if people wanted to pay a premium for heads with OE valves installed
I would have no problem with that. People can pay a premium to get
premium valves. However when a company says their heads are better when
they are putting in aftermarket valves which may or may not be any
better than what they are replacing I just don't think this is right.
Just my opinion.
Ken Wilford
John 3:16
www.vanagain.com
VW Doka wrote:
> >From my experience, they start to show significant valve stem wear
> around 20k miles. Failure around 40k miles.
>
> The bad batch story is just that... a story. The AMC heads sold today
> still use the same cheap, crappy exhaust valves as the ones from 5
> years ago. You can buy the same valves brand new for about $7. A
> good exhaust valve for the WBXer runs about $35.
>
> Not conjecture, not really opinion... just my experience.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Robert Keezer <warmerwagen@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
>> Very logical . After all, how would a company like this stay in business
year after year with notoriously bad valves?
>> It just did'nt make sense.
>>
>> I think Kens' answer is reasonable fro me to go by.
>>
>> One bad batch has perpetuated this myth all these years. I never
believed it .
>>
>> Most of my Vanagons sold with AMC heads and never a complaint.
>> Which is why I asked, how long do they last? This bad batch head?
>>
>> If they went bad in 5 years, I would'nt expect to hear from the buyer .
>> One year or less maybe . Less than 6 months probably.
>>
>> Robert
>> 1982 Westfalia
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
>> Subject: Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 12:18 PM
>>
>>
>> I spent a bunch of time on the phone with Bob talking about this subject
>> as well, but I believe all of this fear and loathing about the AMC
>> valves is due to a bad batch of these heads back about 6 or 7 years
>> ago. I have never had a failure like the one Bob always warned me about
>> and I never changed the valves from the stock ones. Recently I had a
>> pair of AMC heads that I installed on an engine about two years ago come
>> back into my possession (engine threw a rod). The heads had about 18k
>> miles on them. I took the heads to a machine shop to have them checked
>> and a valve job done before selling the heads to a list member. I asked
>> the machine shop about the condition of the valve keepers, grooves on
>> the valve stems, etc. He said that he had inspected them and they were
>> like new condition and that they valves themselves were also in like new
>> condition. I can say that I have never had an AMC head fail in 11 years
>> of installing them. I have never had one that I have sold to a customer
>> fail due to a bad valve either. Anything can fail if you abuse it, or
>> improperly install it, or don't correctly adjust the valves, etc.
>> However I have never found the stock AMC valves to have any issues. If
>> you want to spend extra money on "better" valves and install them only
>> to have them fail (I have known this to happen) that is your choice.
>> However the stigma against using the AMC heads out of the box is totally
>> unfounded as far as I am concerned.
>>
>> Just my experience,
>> Ken Wilford
>> John 3:16
>> www.vanagain.com
>>
>>
>> Zoltan wrote:
>>
>>> One important fact I learned from Bob, was that the AMC heads have loose
keepers. The two halves meet each other to touch, thus grabbing the valve
stem, being loose, they travel up and down until they break through the
grooves and the valve free to move deeper inside and then operated by the
piston to have it pushed up.
>>> So, the first thing I recomment to anyone I meet is to have the keepers
ground at their sides until they don't touch each other.
>>> Bob was very happy with the AMC heads and tossed the old ones for their
metal fatigue. In his experience, it was not worth chancing all the
troubles by putting the old ones back.
>>> He liked the better material the AMC heads are made of.
>>> So, the keepers must be fixed first.
>>> Zoltan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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