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Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:24:07 -0700
Reply-To:     Poppie Jagersand <poppie.jagersand@YAHOO.CA>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Poppie Jagersand <poppie.jagersand@YAHOO.CA>
Subject:      Re: New battery chemistries to watch for
Comments: To: Don Hanson <dhanson928@GMAIL.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

I think the Prius fits its niche well. They have been economic and reliable for owners for a decade. (I think both Toyota and its dealers were nervous when the Prius was released in large scale. Maintenance problems could have turned out a nightmare for dealerships and PR disaster for the company. They are now relieved to know that it seem to outlast the pretty generous warranty). However does it last two decades, like a good quality regular car? Or three, four, five or six, like many of our VW buses have? I'm curious to see that first before I buy a used Prius and potentially have to deal with degradations during the tailend of its life. The Prius uses NiMH batteries, the same chemistry as in most small (AAA to C) rechargable cells sold in stores. Regularly NiMH lasts around 500 cycles, but precise charge, discharge control, challow cycling and potentially better quality cells makes the Prius battery go many more cycles. Exactly how many I'd like to see. Nickel batteries in cars are however likely to be a brief parenthesis. Lithium Iron Phosphate is what I think we will see. These are in mass production in China and prices are dropping to competitive levels. By contrast, the Prius sales success have driven up prices on Nickel batteries, and made the larger cells used in the car virtually unavailable on the normal market. China is also driving the electric vehicle revolution. It has not yet reached cars, but the Chinese are buying 23 million electric bikes, scooters and motorcycles yearly. Electric bikes outnumber conventional cars 4:1 in China. Using mass produced electric motors batteries and controllers from the electric bike production it will be easy to make a lightweight, but covered three wheeler motorcycle that can serve as a city runabout. The step to a car is more difficult. In a conventional car design it is cheaper to churn out unsophisticated hunks of steel than well designed but complex vehicles. The consumer until recently seldom thought about life cycle cost including fuel etc. With electric cars, cost goes up dramatically with weight, but it is difficult to design a lightweight car to be safe in collisions with today's vehicle park of SUV's and trucks. However, for home e-conversions the VW buses are good candidates at only 2000-2500lbs for the T1 and T2, and just below 3000 for a T3 stripped of the engine and other related components. Result is a vehicle with the weight of a regular car, but the hauling capacity of a truck, and costing a few cents per mile to drive. Martin --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Don Hanson <dhanson928@GMAIL.COM> wrote: > From: Don Hanson <dhanson928@GMAIL.COM> > Subject: Re: New battery chemistries to watch for > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Received: Monday, June 29, 2009, 9:17 AM > I wonder what the owners of Prii (is > that the plural of Prius?) are thinking > about all the "new" battery tech?  Aren't the > batteries in a Prius or any of > the electric hybrids pretty darned expensive right > now?  Replacing or > Upgrading their vehicle's power storage source could be a > significant > expense for them.  Of course, they'll probably be > expected to just replace > the whole vehicle rather than upgrade their existing > cars...There's probably > an automaker's  lobby working already to make it > un-lawful, somehow, to > replace the battery in your Prius with a better one... >    The film "Who killed the Electric Car" > had a segment about new battery > technology.  It seems a battery  technology that > vastly improved storgage > batteries has been around for a while but was bought up for > corporate profit > reasons and shelved, along with the electric cars of a few > years ago.. > Maybe all that is coming back out again. > > > http://video.google.com/videosearch?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GFRD_enUS304US305&q=who+killed+the+electric+car&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=m71ISq3MLpKOsgPU4cSQAQ&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=282495457 > # > >   Jeeze!  That looks like it may be hard to > 'click on' for a trailer on that > documentary film "Who Killed the Electric Car"..Maybe just > Google that title > if you are interested in learning a little more about how > the US Auto > Industry works/worked? > >   Don Hanson > On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Poppie Jagersand <poppie.jagersand@yahoo.ca > > wrote: > > > It used to be that LiPO4 batteries was for racing nuts > only who shaved > > every ounce off their vehicles. However now it seems > like it is coming down > > in price to not much more than an AGM: > > > > 12V, 30Ah, 2000 cycles at 70% DOD $265 > > Weight 4kg !! > > http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=H1230 > > > > at 70% this gives 21 usable Ah > > by comparison a Lead Acid deep cycle should not be > taken beyond 50%, giving > > the typical group 41 50Ah battery about 25 usable Ah > > > > Comparing the 2000 deep cycles to the typical 200-300 > of a Lead Acid > > the LiPO4 battery is actually cheaper over the long > run. > > > > Now I'd wouldn't run out and buy one right away. While > the cell technology > > is mature by now, there's electronics inside these > batteries to control > > charging, discharging currents and maintain cell > voltage balance. I'd like > > to see how this electronics hold up in automobile > service first. But the > > promise for the future is great. A battery weighing > 1/5 of the Lead Acid, > > lasting 10 times longer and not costing much more. > > > > > >      > __________________________________________________________________ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of > Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > __________________________________________________________________ Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php


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