Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:52:21 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: rear brake shims
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hey all right,
thanks for the good words.
and I believe you, and the concept that the shims help.
I'll try it myself one of these days .....
my main point was to not get off track with 'esoteric' things.
for sure..........the shim idea has benefits, no doubt. Not questioning
that.
the 'common standard' is a big cheater bar and a big breaker bar.
No body is using a torque wrench that reads to 300 ft lbs.
or maybe two people in North America ...
it is always..........a 3 and a half foot long cheater pipe is about right
......
and .....the right tool is a 3/4 drive breaker bar, with the right socket.
An american-sized one will do just fine, doesn't have to be metric.
I have a fondness for NM, and have been to Sante Fe, usually on the way to
Taos, many times.
And hot dog on your 2.2/2.5 hybrid.
that will be interesting.
I don't have much of either ! ....time or money ! lol.
I have a fair amout of subaru engine parts......
three 2.2's and a 99 SOHC 2.5 .........and an SVX .......
for parts or core engines, etc.
if you need anything, that I might have in that dept. , just ask.
I am always finding things and tools.
My heavy duty cheater bar happens to be a fence post tube.....
extra strong thick-walled construction.
I found it on an air force base in 1971.
my S & W 3/4 drive breaker bar............cost $ 30 in Meford oregon in
1975.
I'd say I've gotten my money's worth out of that tool !
there is also a 'hammer tool' to undo the big rear nut.
I've never bothered to try the one I have, but it probably works all right.
You put it over the nut...........a part to hammer on sticks out about 6
inches, and you hammer on that.
re getting the torque back right ...........mark the nut positon relative to
the hub/flange before you undo the nut.
then put it back to where it was when tighenting. That assumes it was tight
in the first place correctly of course.
I get a bright yellow paint marker at welding supply places. I mark lots of
stuff with it, suspension stuff, used parts etc.
If I'm going to have a van parked but know I'll work on it more later, I
might leave out the cotter pin, but mark the nut so I can tell if it moves
or not.
That's for temp use only of course.
nice to get your note.
scott
----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren Lail" <wklail@gmail.com>
To: "Scott Daniel - Turbovans" <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>
Cc: <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: Re: rear brake shims
Hi Scott,
I consider you one of the gurus of this list, so I take what you say
seriously, and I agree with much of it. However, the shims have made
quite a difference in the braking feel. My bus now sort of squats
instead of plunges and I attribute that to better braking power in the
rear. In 2006 (70,000 miles ago) I replaced my rear brake shoes and
drums and didn't shim. This time I only needed to replace the shoes
which were worn at the tops (but truthfully not all that badly). The
shims seem to have made a difference. Give it a try sometime and
you'll be able to report on the process and the result.
I didn't pull the rear hub assembly because I don't have a way to
re-torque that big nut to 300+ ft/lbs as it calls for in Bentley
(although some day I'll have such a torque wrench). It would
definitely be easier to do the brakes with the hub out of the way. I
did clean and repack the front outer bearings, however. I bought new
inner and outer bearings, but when I pulled the outers they looked
fine, barely worn (as you mentioned in an earlier post). I just
cleaned them thoroughly, repacked them, and put them back in. I
tightened the peen nut (used a new one) until tight, turning the wheel
all the time, and then backed it off until I could move the thrust
washer a little bit. Everything feels fine now.
You are right in that workmanship is key. However, I'm a poor man who
has more time that money, so I do my own repairs. I have a pretty
good track record, however. I replaced my 2.1 with a Subie 2.2 in 7
days back in '06 and it's still running good. In fact, I'm planning
on replacing my 2.2 short block with a 2.5 short block and still use
my 2.2 heads and intake manifold (and importantly, my 2.2 computer and
wiring harness). But that's for next summer.
Thanks for the input!
Warren in Santa Fe
88 Westy, Subie 2.2
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Scott Daniel -
Turbovans<scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
> Hi.....
> this is getting kinda crazy almost.
> I say that becuse .........
> sure, I can well imagine that there is a tiny bit to be gained by shimming
> out the bottom of the shoes.......
> BUT ........it's hard for me to get behind that, since I go years and
> years
> and hardly wear down brake shoes.
>
> It's 'cheating' ............but I'll just replace one shoe that's worn at
> the top with one that's not so worn .........
> that gets me OK for tens of thousands of miles.
>
> that part is rivited into the backing plate I beleive.
> I have have a dozen backing plates not on vanagons, most of them not
> rusted.
> if anyone needs to buy a good used backing plate for vanagon rear brakes,
> I
> can supply them with one or two or whatever.
>
> my personal recomendation is .......
> forget this shim stuff for now, just do a good solid clean brake job.
> For example..........how mnay people think to put anti-seize compound on
> those little spots on the backing plate that the shoes slide on ?
> not everyone, I'm sure, because there was a time in my car reapir career
> that I didn't know about that, so I imagine others might not know about
> that
> either.
>
> I highly recommend taking off the rear wheel mounting flange to do rear
> brake work on a vanagon.
> besides just facilitating the brake work ( about 5 times easier with out
> of
> the way ) .....
> it's good to know the flange is not stuck on the splined axle......or
> loose,
> or rusted , or whatever.
> It's good to know you have the tools and skills to get that part off to do
> rear wheel bearings.
> It is not good to let things be untouched for years and years.
> It IS good to have things apart for inspection and service, and corrosion
> prevention treatments.
>
> another trick some may not know.....
> those return springs on the shoes........those can be a bear. The trick is
> to use the shoe itself as a lever on the springs.
> you hook both ends of the spring, one on the shoe, one on the backing
> plate........then lever the shoe into place. Very slick.
>
> I'm sure everyone knows to do only one side at a time.
> that's so you can look at the other side for reference.
> NEVER mix up parts side to side !
> especially that flat bar with the adjustment screw on it.
> there is one part there that will fit either way .......one way is 'more
> right' than the other way. The Bentley book barely illustrates which was
> is
> correct.
> - where there's a slot that engages ...........those parts will fit either
> way. Only one way is right.
>
> I often back off the parking brake cable adjustment , do the brake
> work....then tighten the adjustment back as a last step.
> also ............the initial adjustment......
> turn the adjsutment thing......until the drum fits over.
> then jerk on the parking brake a few times..........that seats the shoes
> against the drum.
> I mean jerk, as in yank, not just pull, not real hard either, but a little
> yank affect. . Makes the shoes jump and settle against the drums. Then
> take
> the drum back off,
> get a couple of more clicks out of the adjuster, drum back, on, repeat,
> etc.
> . I do one side at a time.
>
> I put anti-seize compound on the end of the shoes where they touch the
> bottom pivot and the wheel cyinder.
> I put it under the hold-down coil springs, and on those slide points on
> the
> backing plate.
> I spray lube parking brake cables until they are nice and smooth.
> I spray lube the pivot points of the parking brake handle, and the brake
> pedal.
>
> I actually find maybe 100 spots in a vangon where things pivot , latch, or
> slide, that have never ever been lubed since the van left the factory.
> Maybe way more than 100 even.
>
> just do meticulous careful work.
> always jack things up properly for good access.
> Most of the time, it pays to undo something in the way for better access
> to
> what you are working on.
> In aricraft, it's called FOM ..........'facilitate other maintanence'
> .....
> they send the radar guy out to remove the radar antannna so the hydrualic
> guy can get at something behind it , etc.
> So do FOM when it's appropiate. It pays to do nice solid clean work, and
> be
> proud of your accomplishment.
>
> Anybody ever heard of a 'cable shortenter' ?
> its' a real thing you can get at a FLAPS .....or mabye in the past you
> could. Havn't seen one for a while.
> Shouldn't need one though, but they exist.
>
> oh ! ......this shim thing ........I'm sure it's valid.
> But it reminds me of my mantra or maxxim - 'New Part is only worth so much
> in producing a good result, and really solid workmanship is worth about 90
> % towards producing a good result.'
> i.e. .......it's only partially in the parts used, the vast majority of a
> good result comes from meticulous workmanship.
>
> and there are a lot of ways to do drum brakes wrong.
>
> as drum brakes go in the automotive world...........vanagon rear ones are
> actually not bad at all. I totally approve of them actually, and I'm
> rather
> critical of many poor design things I see on cars , but vanagon rear drum
> brakes are all right. Just do good work on 'em. And it's 'all about the
> Workmanship, NOT the parts !"
> those count too of course,
> but not as much as good workmanship.
> do good work, have fun.
> later !
> Scott
> www.turbovans.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Warren Lail" <wklail@GMAIL.COM>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 1:07 PM
> Subject: Re: rear brake shims
>
>
>> Someone in an earlier post today said that they ruined the backing
>> plate trying to remove the v-shaped thing with the notches. I have
>> since deleted my digest and don't have the message. During my ordeal,
>> I took the two bolts out but it looks like the device is held in by a
>> pin of some sort. Does anyone know how correctly remove that thing?
>>
>> AND update on brakes. The rear brakes seem to be adding more to my
>> stopping performance than before. Now instead of the full on "plunge"
>> of the front end upon hard braking, I get more of an overall
>> 'squatting' feeling, which tells me the rear brakes are contributing.
>>
>> Warren in Santa Fe
>> 88 Westy, Subie 2.2
>
>
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